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Given the recent discussions about NVC, I am wondering if mindfulness and unschooling are compatible. (NVC does fall into mindfulness. It works clinically for adults to name their feelings with needs and request. For children under 5 years of age, NVC would look like attachment parenting for infants and for toddlers, to help identify their feelings. I received clarification on this the other day by a few NVC educators.) Mindfulness also includes mediation and yoga. I am asking because I know mindfulness benefits brain development and emotional intelligence.

All the best,

M.J.

- Traveling Natural Momma Blog

On Mar 19, 2010, at 11:30 PM, myung-jin kang wrote:

I am wondering if mindfulness and unschooling are compatible

Probably everything I know about mindfulness (the Buddhist practice) comes from others who have found pieces that work with their unschooling and bring those ideas to unschooling discussions.

The problem with combining any two philosophies is that individual practices and principles from each might work well together, the goals aren't necessarily compatible. So when facing some problem one philosophy will pull one way and the other will pull another. Both answers will have a rightness to them and it won't be clear why the confusion.

That's the problem parents who practice conventional parenting face. Conventional parenting is sort of a "do what's best for the kids" philosophy. But "best" isn't clearly defined and parents end up pulling bits and pieces from lots of different philosophies with incompatible goals.

As another example, it recently struck me that some people who've adopted natural living as their philosophy will also adopt natural learning. They'll sometimes call what they're doing unschooling because natural learning and unschooling seem like the same thing. And they label their life philosophy unschooling probably because natural learning is the piece of their lives that sets them the furthest from mainstream so it seems like the central part.

The problem is that the natural living and unschooling philosophies aren't the same. The philosophy of natural living narrows the world to what they parent believes is the best part. If a child's interests -- like snack foods or Spongebob cartoons or cheap plastic toys -- lay beyond mom's definition of "best" and "natural" and "wholesome" she needs to compromise unschooling to make natural living work.

It's probably easier and clearer to focus on one philosophy and add practices and ideas from other philosophies that help it work even better.

NVC does fall into mindfulness. It works clinically for adults to name their feelings with needs and request. For children under 5 years of age, NVC would look like attachment parenting for infants and for toddlers, to help identify their feelings. I received clarification on this the other day by a few NVC educators.

They may share some principles and have some features in common but I think it muddies understanding to lump them together because of that. Mindfulness, NVC and attachment parenting are all intended for different purposes.

Mindfulness is a personal practice to reach Buddhist enlightenment. NVC is intended, as someone recently pointed out, was to reach a feeling of fairness between two groups who aren't necessarily working towards a better relationship. Attachment parenting was originally a way to enhance the mother child bond by the mother becoming sensitive to the child's needs, but has become, as Sandra has pointed out, more of a way for mothers to provide only what's "good" for their babies. (The new leaning tends to fall apart when kids show signs their ideas of what's "good" don't match mom's!)

Unschooling is about helping kids explore what interests them so their learning is joyful.

All those have totally different goals.

I am asking because I know mindfulness benefits brain development and emotional intelligence.

Brain development and emotional intelligence will be side effects of being attentive to children's needs and helping them explore what interests them. Parents can pull bits and pieces from other philosophies that can make it easier for kids to explore joyfully. (For instance, if a practice from mindfulness helped a mother accept a child's feelings as a natural reaction rather than trying to change him, that would help unschooling.)

If a mom's focus shifts to a concrete goal like brain development or emotional intelligence, that can interfere with unschooling when a child's needs seem to turn away from those. The goals of "freedom to explore" and "right pathway" won't mesh at all.

Joyce

-=-(For instance, if a practice from mindfulness helped a mother accept
a child's feelings as a natural reaction rather than trying to change
him, that would help unschooling.)-=-

"A practice from mindfulness" suggests that mindfulness is a
philosophy or a set of guidelines or a church or something.

Mindfulness IS something on its own, without a bunch of parts to
choose from, without a bunch of practices within it.

-=-Mindfulness is a personal practice to reach Buddhist enlightenment.
-=-

Within Buddhism, as translated into English, that's true. They used
the very old English word "mindfulness" to serve as this or that other
words originally in Chinese, or Japanese, or Vietnamese, or whatever.

In English, and as I've used it in unschooling discussions, it means
to pay attention to; to pay mind to; to have it in one's mind. to be
mindful.

Mindful of what? Not of Buddhism or enlightenment.

Mindful of one's beliefs and goals. Mindful of one's child,
directly. Attentive. Thoughtful. Aware.



Sandra

-=-NVC does fall into mindfulness.-=-

What does that mean, "fall into mindfulness"? Into a category of
things that are mindful as opposed to things that aren't?

Mindfulness happens inside an individual's mind. That's the only
place and the only way it happens.

Sandra

On Mar 20, 2010, at 9:58 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

"A practice from mindfulness" suggests that mindfulness is a
philosophy or a set of guidelines or a church or something.

I was guessing from her name she was asking about Buddhist
mindfulness or the practices westerners have pulled from it. The
English definition didn't make sense in the context of her question.
(She said "Mindfulness also includes mediation and yoga." I'm
assuming she meant meditation.)

I think Ren brought Buddhist mindfulness up most and the pieces that
she brought to discussions that have most stuck with me are breathing
and what's closer to the English definition of mindfulness which is
being more present and aware of the kids and their needs that are in
the here and now.

Joyce

-=-I was guessing from her name she was asking about Buddhist
mindfulness or the practices westerners have pulled from it. The
English definition didn't make sense in the context of her question. -=-

Right. (Well, I didn't look at her name, but right that it didn't
make sense in context.)

So rather than bending to try to understand other people's twisting of
plain English, I'd rather ask them to sort through and rephrase until
they're speaking normal English and then answer THAT question.

Sandra

So rather than bending to try to understand other people's twisting of
plain English, I'd rather ask them to sort through and rephrase until
they're speaking normal English and then answer THAT question.

Hi Sandra,

I was speaking plain, normal English. Joyce, thank you for catching my typo.

All the best,

M.J.

On Mar 20, 2010, at 1:10 PM, mkangj wrote:

I was speaking plain, normal English.

Actually fairly recent English. What Sandra means is mindful has an
older, common meaning: to be alert, to be attentive to. That's a
concept that's useful for unschooling so it's a good word to keep
here for it's usual sense.

Mindfulness was appropriated for the Buddhist concept . "Mindful" is
more of a label on a whole package of ideas. Unless someone's
somewhat familiar with what's in the package, using the label doesn't
convey much. The NVC label is the same.

The less jargon that's used, the clearer the communication. If the
box of Buddhist mindfulness is opened up rather than using the label,
examining the contents pretty much answers the question. A mom
striving for Buddhist enlightenment doesn't help kids learn. Nor does
a mom doing yoga. Nor a mom meditating. Some of the practices adopted
for stress relief in the west could help the mom destress. But a mom
trying to practice yoga with toddlers will probably add to her
stress! So it's more useful to talk specifically about ways to
destress that don't interfere with unschooling rather than to haul
out the whole Buddhist mindfulness box that has breathing intended to
help someone toward enlightenment in it ;-)

Joyce

--- In AlwaysLearning@..., Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:

The problem is that the natural living and unschooling philosophies
aren't the same. The philosophy of natural living narrows the world
to what they parent believes is the best part. If a child's interests
-- like snack foods or Spongebob cartoons or cheap plastic toys --
lay beyond mom's definition of "best" and "natural" and "wholesome"
she needs to compromise unschooling to make natural living work.

I've been mulling over this since I first read it.

I wonder if "natural living" could be considered a value rather than a life philosophy? And I wonder if sometimes our values bump up against our unschooling philosophy and we just need to sort that out.

In our house, we value reducing our ecological "foot print" and talk about ways to do that (my kid loves to watch The Story of Stuff). We also value purchasing toys, etc. that are most likely not to contain lead or other yucky things (although there are no guarantees). And we are long-time vegetarians (although my son is welcome to eat meat if/when he decides to) and choose organic as often as possible. Some of our values (and life choices) might make us look like "natural living" folks but I'm not sure it's an all encompassing life philosophy for our family.

We are, however, embracing a deeper unschooling philosophy in our family - one that extends to our whole life together. We strongly desire to support our child's interests and make them a priority. When an aspect of an interest bumps up against a value, we are finding ways to work through this. It's challenging to examine our dearly-held values in light of this whole life unschooling philosophy, but it's worth it. It seems to be part of my internal "stretching" right now - and part of "saying yes" more often - and working things out, together, as a family when that yes just isn't forthcoming.

But does that mean that we shouldn't consider what we are moving into as whole life (radical) unschooling based on our prior values? Especially if we are "mindful of" (as in "attentive to") potential conflicts?

That's a sincere question and one I've been wondering about. It might be that we will eventually say we are "natural learners" and leave it at that - or use the term "unschooling" to only talk about how we approach learning.

- Rebecca (who realizes that this may be a better question for the Unschooling Basics list but wanted to respond within the context of this thread)

On 3/20/2010 10:10 AM, mkangj wrote:

I was speaking plain, normal English. Joyce, thank you for catching my typo.

In plain, normal English, "mindful" just means paying attention.. "When you're backing out of the driveway, be mindful of the kids on their bikes." You seem to be using it in a very specialized way that is going to be understood by only a very small fraction of English speakers.

-pam

On Mar 21, 2010, at 1:08 AM, Rebecca McClure wrote:

I wonder if "natural living" could be considered a value rather
than a life philosophy?

Generally speaking I'd say a philosophy is an ideal with a set of
values that support it. It's what someone turns to to help them
decide if an idea is right or wrong for them. It can apply to a part
of life, like a child's learning, or all of life. Generally I'd say a
philosophy is something you're willing to make your life more
difficult for in order to stick with it. How difficult someone is
willing to make their life depends. Some people are willing to die
for their philosophy. Or sacrifice their only son ;-)

Of the specific people I'm thinking of, natural living was definitely
a philosophy, if not a life philosophy. It formed the foundation of
their life choices. Organic food. Organic gardening. Composting. No
plastic. No commercial TV. I didn't get the feeling they'd die for it
though ;-)

Everyone also has a collection of values that shift in priority
depending on the situation that don't necessarily form a cohesive
whole. (And some *only* have a shifting collection.) It might be
labeled a personal philosophy though in my mind a personal philosophy
means someone has given the collection some thought. It's not just a
mish mosh with choices based on current mood ;-)

For instance I value being conservative with money, being green,
buying food with fewer chemicals. Which of those takes precedence
depends on the situation. May depend on whim. May depend on some
other value being more important (like saving time, for instance.)

When an aspect of an interest bumps up against a value, we are
finding ways to work through this. It's challenging to examine our
dearly-held values in light of this whole life unschooling
philosophy, but it's worth it.

Yes, that's what happens with a philosophy. :-) It can help people
see a bigger picture, feel like they have a goal.

But does that mean that we shouldn't consider what we are moving
into as whole life (radical) unschooling based on our prior values?
Especially if we are "mindful of" (as in "attentive to") potential
conflicts?

I'm not entirely sure of what you're asking. But my guess would be it
depends where your priorities end up being. For instance if parents
value organic food and children exploring their interests, when those
two conflict, if the parents are mostly choosing one over the other
it's a good indication of which is most important, which is their
overriding philosophy.

It's not totally cut and dried. Just because I wouldn't have
sacrificed my life to allow Kathryn to unschool, doesn't mean I
shouldn't think of myself as a radical unschooler ;-) What's
important is that someone is making thoughtful choices.

But what's important *here* on this list, is helping people with the
parts of their life they're deliberately trying to make more
difficult by choosing to unschool. If someone decides their children
need to be vegetarian rather than explore their own interests in
food, the purpose of the list isn't to help them compromise
unschooling. They need to figure out how to mesh the two themselves.
Or on a vegetarian list since they're putting the vegetarian
philosophy above unschooling. The purpose of this list is to help
them put unschooling first and figure out how to fit the rest of life
in around it.

Joyce

-=-I wonder if "natural living" could be considered a value rather
than a life philosophy? And I wonder if sometimes our values bump up
against our unschooling philosophy and we just need to sort that out.-=-

I think defining things as values or philosophies is more a part of
identifying with other people than of making decisions in one's own
life.

Because the phrase "natural living" is too vague to cover anyone's
entire life experience and needs, it's better as a magazine title or a
conference title than as a philosophy.

As a priority or a principle, it can be added on to anything. Making
the more natural choice can't always be practical, but having it on
the checklist as something to aim toward can be.

Holly and I had a discussion a week or two ago about adults going
barefooted, in the late 1960's, early '70's. Why? Because it was
different and because it was natural. Then we were watching Roots,
lately (first four episodes, and then Holly's out-of-town trip came)
and we talked about "afros" and natural long hair. Choosing things on
the basis of their being more "natural" (or "organic") was an
important part of the counter-culture '60's/hippie/health food larger
changes in 1969, give or take.

Being barefooted turned into the "Earth Shoe" company, which involved
the heel being lower than the ball of the foot. Those shoes weren't
"natural," but they were more natural than some other shoes.

Each person decides on shoes, food, clothes, housing (if they're
lucky), transportation, etc. Each parent has responsibilities to take
care of children, and choosing "natural" over children's needs and
desires could be a problem.

Flexibility and being analytical in each moment is better than
deciding which "belief system" to follow, in my experience.

Sandra

***I wonder if "natural living" could be considered a value rather than a life philosophy? And I wonder if sometimes our values bump up against our unschooling philosophy and we just need to sort that out.

In our house, we value reducing our ecological "foot print" and talk about ways to do that (my kid loves to watch The Story of Stuff). ***

This came up in a radical unschooling panel discussion at a local homeschooling conference. This comes up periodically on unschooling lists as well.

What it always comes down to is whether or not mom or dad's philosophy will override a child's. If a child really wants a juice box and a parent won't buy one because it creates waste to be disposed of, then mom's philosophy overrides a child's desire for a juice box.

When I remind myself of the HUGE amount of waste that happens in public schools, little throw away juice boxes seem like a small insignificant drop in the bucket. By unschooling, we ARE being mindful of waste. We don't litter school hallways, we don't use up vast amounts of paper for meaningless projects, we don't get sent paper work ad infinitum from the school and the teachers, we don't buy notebooks that get used and then disposed of, nor do we kill millions of frogs for dissection.

The one thing I know without a doubt to be true... If a parent is a big fat jerk and they treat recyclables better than they do their own children, their children are very unlikely to value recycling!

-=-We don't litter school hallways, we don't use up vast amounts of
paper for meaningless projects, we don't get sent paper work ad
infinitum from the school and the teachers, we don't buy notebooks
that get used and then disposed of,...-=-

Keith is in a singing group. They don't meet at our house, but he's
the one who finds their music.

He had written up the words to a song, and made eight copies at work.
They decided to change the words. I offered to reformat that file and
print them here off my printer at home, but he said a couple of the
group members were adamant that it would be a waste of paper not to
make the changes by hand on each sheet.

I know all those singers. They're in their 40's and 50's, mostly;
childless; uptight.

I sent some other music with Keith that night, that we still have in a
file drawer from the late 1970's, before the days of freely-available
photocopying on plain paper. The music had been handwritten by me on
mimeograph masters and run off on inexpensive paper, and we still have
lots of that. So I sent that, told Keith to tell them I said that we
are NOT wasteful of paper, and it was better to learn from decent
copies. They laughed and agreed.

The arguments and defenses and negativities and assurances did more
damage to psyches and planet than a ream of paper just thrown in the
trash would have done. TOO much energy, over eight sheets of paper.

Sandra