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You must be really proud that LSRsafe has done, and continues to do so well. That was a touch of genius to start that group. Tim

Hi Polly, and welcome, I hope you received the welcome intro email. You join another new subscriber who also joined today. We are pretty quiet here (until today). So, I hope you both can add a bit of zest. I look toward to getting to know you both Tim

Hi all, I've added a welcome message for new subscribers, I'd like to know what you think, especially you Craig as you have far more experience of this. Thanks. '' Hi, and welcome, We're very quiet here, as this group is relatively new. Four of us also belong to Lifering, a secular addiction support group. Lifering has an active email group for people new to recovery, with many experienced members who have many years clean and/or sober. In this group we can write about anything (within reason). Please let us know where you're at in your life. We are very accepting. Tim (Co- Group owner) '' Tim

Hi all, Welcome to you, Kyla. We're very quiet here as this group is relatively new. 4 of us also belong to Lifering, a secular addiction support group which has an active email group for people new to recovery, with many experienced members with many years clean and/or sober. In this group we can write about anything (within reason). Please let us know where you're at in your life. We are very accepting. Tim

For me it's always daunting joining a group regardless of years in the game. I got into rehab in '99. I've had 2 minor lapses (aka actual relapses). 2 cans of Guinness on one occasion, and over the counter low dose Codeine tabs (unprescribed and unrelated to what they're meant for). I was with AA for 5yrs and luckily found Lifering. I lapsed both times when I left Lifering for a while, rejoined and left. I aim to stick around. This group is for anyone like us to just talk about anything, incl alcohol/drugs. Tim

'' His mind was just an implosion of sound Hardly ever peaceful, and strangely arrogant, As if the last whine of the saxophone Was all about him. He pompously boasted that ' man was Forever in conflict While always seeking to run from it - Even the battle hardened Generals If they dared to admit it '. He tried to accept his contradictions Even though they plagued him. ' Perfection ', it seemed to him Was the only place to be liked. All the talk of friendships was just waffle His aloneness forbade him to think otherwise And his arrogance refused any entry to doubt. '' - B. Kynsa.

Hi Craig, Jackie, Maree and our friend from the far east It's too long a story to relate how arrived at this point. And it's bound to be emotive and controversial. We might be over 60 or have family members who are. My Dad has been ''dying'' for 6 months now. My sister is breaking her back looking after my father at home and my mother. Both parents aged 84. Not long ago he told my sister he now wants to live. He's lived for fuck's sake. At what point is grasping at life just plain fucking selfish. We already know the progress of the west has enabled people to live longer and are now a burden on societies providing state care. If not part of the implosion of the west. And now a burden on most health services grinding many countries to a virtual standstill due to covid. What messages is my sister giving her young adult daughters? That they follow my sister's example to sacrifice themselves to care for her? How many youngsters and young families are questioning a near year long drought of full pay? I get it that the instinct for survival is most prevalent. I get it that people want to keep their loved ones around for a little longer. A hundred years ago the average age of death was 54 amongst the rich. It didn't change much going back further. In a century life expectancy for most is beyond 80 going on 100. And people are talking of living til 150 in the future. And how is nature reacting? Maybe Covid? A bacteria finds it's way into vulnerable immune systems and spreads like wildfire. And we now know what actual wildfire's do, too. Vent over Tim

Hi Tim and Jackie, Tim, enjoyed your analysis of what is going on in western civilisation in your last post. It helps me to step back and think about things differently, so thanks. Is there another way? Of course there is. Will we make it in time before the climate changes irreversibly in the wrong direction?...not sure and if I were to place a bet, i'd say...no. I have just had a hell of a time coming to terms with that being a reasonable fear and accepting that possible reality. But I think I am through the other side where I now can get up (instead of being paralysed with fear of the future) and live the best way I can and create life and sustainability in my own life through my own actions; as that is the only power I have apart from the vote. I feel not so much for my children (as we are a ways off a hothouse planet), but for the hundred's of thousands of other species who were going about their business and evolving through natural processes and then along come homo-sapiens and utterly dominated. And yes, we are a part of the natural order but we are also a virus/weed that could potentially wipe out all other competition until there is nothing left. And viruses / weeds can only dominate when the natural order has already been disturbed. There is something about us as a species. We take more than we need. We have evolved characteristics that overreach to survive and then work against themselves (a bit like the overreach of instincts Bill Wilson talks about in the alcoholic). I think we are doing that as a species and our planet has become unmanageable (to use some AA terminology). So unless there is some type of reckoning with putting our personal needs secondary to the needs of all who inhabit the planet, then our days are numbered. It doesn't mean we have to give up everything but we do need to learn to share our lives in ways we have not yet had to. Without this reckoning / understanding we will wipe ourselves out eventually and whether the evolution of the earth can come back from a hothouse state over millennia is not something we can answer. But back to your objective summary of western civilisation Tim; it will go one way or the other and in response to whichever way it swings (fascism or democracy) it will swing back again. However, these current times are different than anything we have previously experienced in that we are now a divided global society (through technology) and on a global level, at least half the folks are completely brainwashed by the media / facebook. I was talking to a school mother the other day who is devoutly Christian (and cares deeply about others), however her political beliefs have been completely hijacked by false messages fashioned for lowest common denominator thinking and fed through our major media outlets. And the majority of folks swallow it all, hook, line and sinker with no investigation or analysis of their own. The political right constantly asserts that individuals make their own decisions and do their own investigation, however I beg to differ. We all should, if we want to be agents of our own lives and beliefs (as much as we have the power to be), however most folks can't be bothered. We are literally sleepwalking into a catastrophe of our own making through voting one way or the other. Absolute power does corrupt, so it is naiive for me to suggest social democracies dominated the western landscape, we would not have many difficulties, however, would we be in the situation we are in now? If neoliberalism had not taken a foothold, would we be in the political situation we are in now? We are sorely in need of some sort of ethical leadership. Divorced from religious or ideological framing or beliefs but based on observable and measurable facts. Probably a humanist approach or an ecological approach would be my preference. Anyway, just some musings for a Thursday afternoon. I hope you are starting to get a bit more energy Jackie and that things in your area are ok. I have been watching the news and am really thinking of you guys in your upcoming election and realise thin

Hi, There's an insect that lays it's eggs in hot water streams running from volcanoes. It becomes so successful in do so, that eventually the eggs form a dam and the water stops flowing. All the eggs die. The West has become so successful on many levels, combining riches, standards of living, health, freedoms, welfare and humanity. Quite an achievement for humans. There are two opposing forces that have caught up, for some time, on some of these levels. China and Russia. Two opposing ideologies. 3 massive tribes. They're watching as the West slowly implodes, regardless of any subterfuge from these opposing forces. Our aged population is a noose around a societies neck. Our ability to keep people alive has created a population explosion that is unsustainable. Our so called freedoms of speech are another unlikely noose. We are battling a massive leap in communications of this freedom that we think we have control over. We don't. We are battling against a new world order. No longer are there small tribes with as many chiefs and an equal array of beliefs. There's the united states of Europe. The united states of America. And two massive states of Russia and China, with India close behind. Maybe the world needs one state now. Maybe our species needs another plan to survive or self destruct through corrupting nature and the environment. Maybe its not about the individual. And maybe ''individualism'' is another noose around the West's neck. So much so that Narcissism has slowly crept in unnoticed. Evolution can be deceptive. Nuclear weapons have kept a peace that is not necessarily beneficial to our species as we like to think. This may sound like doom and gloom. It's not. It's another perspective. That what we see are civilisations dying out, as the Greeks, Romans, Mesopotamia, British empires died out. Maybe it's the time for the West. We grieve no more for the Romans or Greeks. How can we really help this planet, Gaia? If we actually can. The planet that we call earth will burn out as other planets have. I'm not saying I agree with any of the above. I'm just seeing a perspective that brings me acceptance of change. Of a perspective that isn't about me, or my children, or my families. It's not about my beliefs, or hopes, dreams and idealism. I'm just a consciousness that was incarnated into this part of history. Into this massive society and privilege we call 'the West '. That's how I see Trump, Putin and names I can't pronounce in Chinese. Am I fearful for my children? No. Not now. They will have to live through their incarnation as I did mine. I grew up in just as unstable world as it is now. The threat of nuclear war and world destruction. Whatever changes occur, aside from pollution and global warming, are far better than total war and destruction. Maybe it's up to '' Nature '' to sort humans out, like it always has. And not human nature. Trump and Biden are just sideshows. Putin and China are just pawns on the universal chessboard. Or just ants. Or electrons. Or smaller. An insignificance in any bigger picture. Tim

Hi all, long time no speak. I pondering changing the premise of this group and make it newcomer orientated. I'm thinking of advertising it locally. 1. To keep me safe - a) From AA bandits b) From having to deal with newbies on my own. I used to do 12 step work and I know from experience it's too much alone. 2. By doing this I might then progress to starting Lifering meetings depending on who's interested. There might be a few who've left AA like me, to lend a hand. Tim

........is pretty much dead in water. If any of you, Craig, Maree and Jackie wish to email me privately about anything, you're more than welcome. Also, how do you feel about closing the group down? Tim

The horrendous fires in the US. Freak flooding in Sudan. Glaciers melting from warm undercurrents Covid Massive reduction in natural wildlife. ?????? If one was religious one might say God is pretty pissed off.

There are tons of addiction/alcohol groups on Facebook. Not all AA, NA etc. I don't like the format. Yahoo groups are still the best. Still contemplating uniting alkies n addicts from differing support under one roof. I don't hold much hope tho. Will probably try Twitter next.

Tim, i am sorry to have used the word grief as you said that is not what you are feeling....but perhaps my own experience of grief has been of a flatness as you described....perhaps the deepest of sadness which is why I used it. I hope you had some sleep and that a new day is dawning with quietness yes, as we are living in a new world now....but perhaps a bird will sing to enrich your day ? Sent from ProtonMail mobile

Hi Craig, Jackie, Maree Man, this group is growing fast. I signed into Facebook and the group set up is crap. I'm trying Twitter next. My enthusiasm is falling away. Maybe just as well. All I could was problems anyway, especially knowing what AA hard core are like. Somewhere between 0-17 my personality changed. I remember a guy posting on an AA group saying, '' If you kill yourself before you're 5 yrs sober, you've murdered the wrong person. '' I guess it's a clue to how we can lose sense of our real selves. And years of drinking, and being something we're not, compounds it. And I've just realised, saying that, all the crap we did wasn't us. For the most part, I'm guessing. I've always had trouble working out who I am in all that wreckage. Maybe, during the times I was sober the real me came out to play. I have to admit, though, I put on a real good act sober. So it adds to the confusion. I've googled ' personality ' a few times. It didn't help. Then there's being different people for different situations. Along with the front we put on it just becomes cloudier. Yes, I'm overanalyzing, and maybe trying to find answers I'll never find. There are just too many variables and too much complexity in the human condition. And then yin and yang. Animal vs. Human. Emotions, feelings, instincts, intuition. I've just thought of something. I'm going to try and remember my son growing up. Tim

.......men and boys immediately pick up stones and throw them into the sea? They think they can put the beach back from where it came from.

Dear Tim, I am sorry to hear about your pain. The grief of coming to terms with what is. I stand by your side on this very hard day. I stand with your grief and sadness and hold it with my own. When my sister died of a heroin overdose I imagined linking hands with everyone all over the world who had experienced the same and it helped me in my grief. I hear yours is not grief of the loss of your father but as you said the pain of never really having a father, I hear this. I extend my hand to you now as a fellow traveller who has not felt the love of parents as it should be. We can link hands all around the world. You are not alone. Go well, Maree Sent from ProtonMail mobile

I have no expectations of anyone or any idea of mine. Years ago I might have. Not now. Expectations lead to resentments lead to me losing the plot. Tim

Hi all, I've visited many recovery sites over the years. They always seemed chaotic. I admit, I'm not so clued up at present. However, with this café started it got me thinking to ideas I had when I left AA. Lifering was the ideal place for me to seek refuge. It still is. With all our experiences of AA, and maybe other places, even those not suitable, aren't we in the best place to give people wanting to quit an informed choice? Lifering is open with this, and it has helped me expand my thinking. With the internet the possibilities seem endless. Yes, I might be idealistic. However, as I told my Father when I was accused of such as a youngster, 'You don't give up the dream because of idealism'. I feel that one can work towards idealism, while accepting it can't be reached. Tim

..... to coin a quote. I'd like to take this café to Twitter and Facebook. I'd like to see AA, Lifering, SMART, etc being discussed. I'd like to see exchanges of what we've got up to through quitting. Ideas, opinions etc. I'm pretty sure it will attract hotheads, extremists and the deranged, like me. '' I have a dream ''. On the other hand, am I really that bored? It could turn out to be, '' I have a nightmare ''. Or it might not turn out at all.