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I'm the proud owner of a 96 Chalet, and have been super annoyed by the original propane heater, mostly it seems to dump as much heat outside as it puts in the room! Cold weather camping, fuel use, is voracious!
?I was thinking of replacing it with a semi-truck style, diesel fueled bunk heater (such as the Webasto, or Espar,) ducted to pull cool air from one end under the bed and supply it at the opposite under the table.
?Has anyone tried one of these? And how did you like it? Was it economical enough in operation to justify its installation?
On a side note has anyone found a way to search topics on Groups.io?
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The propane furnaces in these trailers are actually pretty efficient.? I doubt a diesel heater would do significantly better, and I also doubt that's the major issue.
I'd bet it's not a furnace problem, but an insulation problem.? Theres a few things to do or check.
Set up the trailer at night, have someone go around the outside of the trailer, shining a light up at the A wall seals, and the roof peak seal.? Have someone else inside the trailer, with lights out, look for light coming through from outside.? If light comes through you have an air gap, and a seal needs to be replaced, possibly with something thicker.? A lot of trailers, even new from the factory, have air gaps.
The windows also lose a tremendous amount of heat.? Thick curtains help a lot.? Some people also put reflectrix on the inside of the window.? .
The metal roof edges also have no insulation.? You can get the grey tubes of pipe insulation and stuff them on top of the A wall edges after trailer setup to reduce that problem.
Also make sure your furnace is working right.? A common problem is to have mud wasps make a nest in the furnace air duct, reducing air flow significantly.? You could also have an rv guy check the propane burner too.
For comparison, I've camped a bunch when the temps drop to the mid twenties at night.? I'll run the furnace for about 10 hours per day, mostly at night.? The furnace runs maybe? 1/4 to 1/3rd of the time.? That plus firing up the water heater once a day, will use up a 5 gallon bottle of propane in about 8 days.? I keep the temp at 55 while sleeping and in the 60s when we're up.
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Another problem with diesel fuel is the smell. It permeates EVERYTHING in short order. It also creeps everywhere with the slightest spill or leak. If you already have two 100 gallon tanks strapped to the side of your truck, yea, diesel is
the way to go. But I don't think it would be a good idea for an RV heater in a small trailer. My propane heater works well, but it's very noisy when the fan comes on during the night.
I once looked into those electric mattress pads that are also used by truckers. I can't remember what the current draw was, but if you're already on shore power, that would be something to consider. With battery power, they might consume
too much. But it would be very efficient and they are far less fragile than an electric blanket. That would take care of the nights, then run propane during the day.
Eric
On 11/3/2019 6:38 PM, Steve T wrote:
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The propane furnaces in these trailers are actually pretty efficient.? I doubt a diesel heater would do significantly better, and I also doubt that's the major issue.
I'd bet it's not a furnace problem, but an insulation problem.? Theres a few things to do or check.
Set up the trailer at night, have someone go around the outside of the trailer, shining a light up at the A wall seals, and the roof peak seal.? Have someone else inside the trailer, with lights out, look for light coming through from outside.? If light comes
through you have an air gap, and a seal needs to be replaced, possibly with something thicker.? A lot of trailers, even new from the factory, have air gaps.
The windows also lose a tremendous amount of heat.? Thick curtains help a lot.? Some people also put reflectrix on the inside of the window.? .
The metal roof edges also have no insulation.? You can get the grey tubes of pipe insulation and stuff them on top of the A wall edges after trailer setup to reduce that problem.
Also make sure your furnace is working right.? A common problem is to have mud wasps make a nest in the furnace air duct, reducing air flow significantly.? You could also have an rv guy check the propane burner too.
For comparison, I've camped a bunch when the temps drop to the mid twenties at night.? I'll run the furnace for about 10 hours per day, mostly at night.? The furnace runs maybe? 1/4 to 1/3rd of the time.? That plus firing up the water heater once a day, will
use up a 5 gallon bottle of propane in about 8 days.? I keep the temp at 55 while sleeping and in the 60s when we're up.
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My only complaints about the stock Chalet propane heaters are the noise of the fan and the amperage it takes (we dry camp with 200 watts of solar power).?? I hoped by now someone would make a more noise and current efficient RV heater.? Seems like all of them are loud, even in new big rigs.
Extra insulation?is a must for cold camping.? We have 3/4" foam panel inserts at night for the bubble windows and ceiling fan and vent openings.? We slip auto windshield shades between the curtains and glass windows. In cold camps we insert strips of 3/4" foam (WalMart blue foam pads cut into appropriate sized strips) along the interior exposed aluminum channels between the walls and roof panels.? Same foam permanently glued to inside exposed aluminum hinges.??
The weather stripping where the roof panels meet on our 2005 Chalet is no longer tight.? When we set up for a cold camp we simply run a strip of duct tape inside along the gap where the two roof panels meet.
All exposed interior metal trim will condense moisture at night when it is cold.??
For cold camps we have good bedding and turn down the thermostat to 40 degrees when we go to bed and turn it up in the morning.? Two weeks ago we spent a week along the Eastern Sierra with nights between 22 and 25 degrees.? No problems?other than the loud furnace when running.
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Jon, your mention of using duct tape has prompted this comment.? I stayed in the Black Rock Desert for 5 weeks beginning August 1st.? 106 degrees or so during the days, 40s to 50s at night.? I sealed every exterior joint with 3M No Residue duct tape to aid in dust control.? After the 5 weeks I pulled it off and it lived up to the name.? No residue whatsoever.??
On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at 11:32 PM, Jon Nowlin <ccnvww@...> wrote: My only complaints about the stock Chalet propane heaters are the noise of the fan and the amperage it takes (we dry camp with 200 watts of solar power).?? I hoped by now someone would make a more noise and current efficient RV heater.? Seems like all of them are loud, even in new big rigs.
Extra insulation?is a must for cold camping.? We have 3/4" foam panel inserts at night for the bubble windows and ceiling fan and vent openings.? We slip auto windshield shades between the curtains and glass windows. In cold camps we insert strips of 3/4" foam (WalMart blue foam pads cut into appropriate sized strips) along the interior exposed aluminum channels between the walls and roof panels.? Same foam permanently glued to inside exposed aluminum hinges.??
The weather stripping where the roof panels meet on our 2005 Chalet is no longer tight.? When we set up for a cold camp we simply run a strip of duct tape inside along the gap where the two roof panels meet.
All exposed interior metal trim will condense moisture at night when it is cold.??
For cold camps we have good bedding and turn down the thermostat to 40 degrees when we go to bed and turn it up in the morning.? Two weeks ago we spent a week along the Eastern Sierra with nights between 22 and 25 degrees.? No problems?other than the loud furnace when running.
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Steve T:? Do you know of a resource for side wall gap insulation?? -Jim??
-- j ARCHITECTS
"Happiness equals reality minus expectations"?? - Tom Magliozzi
Jim Rymsza, Architect
6823 30th Avenue NE, Seattle? WA? 98115 (Cell) 2 0 6 . 7 7 8 . 4 1 8 2
(Web)? (Houzz)
The opening and/or possession of any attachment(s) to this e-mail is your acceptance of the
Agreement to Obtain Electronic Files located at:
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Check out the Propex heaters designed for sailboats and RVs. They still run off propane and electricity but are much more efficient.
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I dont cold camp yet, defined as below 30 degrees to me.? I have given this a bit of thought and think backer rod would be good.? Can be compressed?, stored easily, and is closed foam.? Various thicknesses could be utilized and labeled for location.??
On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 11:57 AM, Robert Singleton <robsingleton@...> wrote: Check out the Propex heaters designed for sailboats and RVs. They still run off propane and electricity but are much more efficient.
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For the side gap insulation I simply bought a blue foam sleeping pad from WalMart.? It is a high-density closed-cell foam product. Easy to get, effective, and not expensive!
Cut it in strips snugly to fit the gap between the side walls and roof panels.? "Measure twice, cut once."
Two strips for each side front and two strips for each side back.? Keep them rolled up when not in use.? Easy and quick to put them in place when needed and very effective is insulating the aluminum and stopping drafts.??
Used the same foam glued on the inside of the front and back aluminum hinges to insulate them and stop condensation.? The blue 'accent' looks good!
We have been using these for over 5 years in very cold situations in the Sierra mountains with no problems.
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I tapped into the propane line and added a quick disconnect hose.? I have a Mr. Buddy heater with a quick connect.? I use that on low down to below zero and it's very warm.? It's an inexpensive and simple option that works.? It does create condensation on the metal, as pointed out above, but leaving a window cracked cuts down on that.? Even with a window open in sub-zero temps it can be too warm sleeping under blankets.
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Jim, no I don't have a link or anything to give you.? I just bought from a local auto parts store.? Plus I'd bet each camper is a little different and may take different thicknesses of seals anyway.
One trick I used was I had a seal that was about 1/8th inch too thin and I got some of that double sided permanent tape, and put a few layers of that underneath it, and that made it thick enough.
I'd just measure and go buy, local or online if necessary.? Get the bulb type seals though, not the foam tape.? The bulb stuff smushes easier and does a better job.
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On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 07:45 AM, jarchitect2 wrote:
Steve T:? Do you know of a resource for side wall gap insulation?? -Jim??
?
--
j ARCHITECTS
"Happiness equals reality minus expectations"?? - Tom Magliozzi
?
Jim Rymsza, Architect
6823 30th Avenue NE, Seattle? WA? 98115
(Cell) 2 0 6 . 7 7 8 . 4 1 8 2
?
(Web)?
(Houzz)
The opening and/or possession of any attachment(s) to this e-mail is your acceptance of the
Agreement to Obtain Electronic Files located at:
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Hi
Gang:
Our
biggest problem with condensation was dripping from the top
ridge. We but a vinyl strip from those walk in cooler doors
across the gap. It keeps the moist air away and if the
condensation drips, it only hits the vinyl strip.
Carl.
O Boy:
The photos are available!
/g/A-frameCamperForum/photo/124149/0?p=Name,,vinyl,20,1,0,0
On 11/3/2019 11:31 PM, Jon Nowlin
wrote:
My only
complaints about the stock Chalet propane heaters are the
noise of the fan and the amperage it takes (we dry camp with
200 watts of solar power).??
I hoped by
now someone would make a more noise and current efficient RV
heater.? Seems like all of them are loud, even in new big
rigs.
Extra
insulation?is a must for cold camping.? We have 3/4" foam
panel inserts at night for the bubble windows and ceiling fan
and vent openings.? We slip auto windshield shades between the
curtains and glass windows. In cold camps we insert strips of
3/4" foam (WalMart blue foam pads cut into appropriate sized
strips) along the interior exposed aluminum channels between
the walls and roof panels.? Same foam permanently glued to
inside exposed aluminum hinges.??
The weather stripping where the roof panels meet on our 2005
Chalet is no longer tight.? When we set up for a cold camp we
simply run a strip of duct tape inside along the gap where the
two roof panels meet.
All exposed
interior metal trim will condense moisture at night when it is
cold.??
For cold
camps we have good bedding and turn down the thermostat to 40
degrees when we go to bed and turn it up in the morning.? Two
weeks ago we spent a week along the Eastern Sierra with nights
between 22 and 25 degrees.? No problems?other than the loud
furnace when running.
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Small Typo, Sorry.
On 11/4/2019 4:30 PM, Carl wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hi
Gang:
Our
biggest problem with condensation was dripping from the top
ridge. We put a vinyl strip from a walk in cooler door
across the gap. It keeps the moist air away and if the
condensation drips, it only hits the vinyl strip.
Carl.
O
Boy: The photos are available!
/g/A-frameCamperForum/photo/124149/0?p=Name,,vinyl,20,1,0,0
On 11/3/2019 11:31 PM, Jon Nowlin
wrote:
My only
complaints about the stock Chalet propane heaters are the
noise of the fan and the amperage it takes (we dry camp with
200 watts of solar power).??
I hoped by
now someone would make a more noise and current efficient RV
heater.? Seems like all of them are loud, even in new big
rigs.
Extra
insulation?is a must for cold camping.? We have 3/4" foam
panel inserts at night for the bubble windows and ceiling
fan and vent openings.? We slip auto windshield shades
between the curtains and glass windows. In cold camps we
insert strips of 3/4" foam (WalMart blue foam pads cut into
appropriate sized strips) along the interior exposed
aluminum channels between the walls and roof panels.? Same
foam permanently glued to inside exposed aluminum hinges.??
The weather stripping where the roof panels meet on our 2005
Chalet is no longer tight.? When we set up for a cold camp
we simply run a strip of duct tape inside along the gap
where the two roof panels meet.
All exposed
interior metal trim will condense moisture at night when it
is cold.??
For cold
camps we have good bedding and turn down the thermostat to
40 degrees when we go to bed and turn it up in the morning.?
Two weeks ago we spent a week along the Eastern Sierra with
nights between 22 and 25 degrees.? No problems?other than
the loud furnace when running.
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I just finished removing the factory installed heater in my 2008 Aliner Classic. I also have a portable little Buddy heater. Where did you get your quick disconnect hoses and does it require a filter or can the Buddy heater run directly off the front propane tanks?
Thanks, Hap
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On Nov 4, 2019, at 3:40 AM, Brian Thoman < list@...> wrote:
I tapped into the propane line and added a quick disconnect hose.? I have a Mr. Buddy heater with a quick connect.? I use that on low down to below zero and it's very warm.? It's an inexpensive and simple option that works.? It does create condensation on the metal, as pointed out above, but leaving a window cracked cuts down on that.? Even with a window open in sub-zero temps it can be too warm sleeping under blankets.
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On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 5:01, Hap Kimmel <pilothap@...> wrote: I just finished removing the factory installed heater in my 2008 Aliner Classic. I also have a portable little Buddy heater. Where did you get your quick disconnect hoses and does it require a filter or can the Buddy heater run directly off the front propane tanks?
Thanks, Hap
? On Nov 4, 2019, at 3:40 AM, Brian Thoman < list@...> wrote:
I tapped into the propane line and added a quick disconnect hose.? I have a Mr. Buddy heater with a quick connect.? I use that on low down to below zero and it's very warm.? It's an inexpensive and simple option that works.? It does create condensation on the metal, as pointed out above, but leaving a window cracked cuts down on that.? Even with a window open in sub-zero temps it can be too warm sleeping under blankets.
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Your link came through, but the image or whatever was with it did not. Wonder if these run on the reduced gas pressure of the Aliner.
On November 5, 2019 at 9:11 AM "dan smartt via Groups.Io" <dansm@...> wrote:
On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 5:01, Hap Kimmel
<pilothap@...> wrote:
I just finished removing the factory installed heater in my 2008 Aliner Classic. I also have a portable little Buddy heater. Where did you get your quick disconnect hoses and does it require a filter or can the Buddy heater run directly off the front propane tanks?
Thanks,
Hap
?
On Nov 4, 2019, at 3:40 AM, Brian Thoman <
list@...> wrote:
I tapped into the propane line and added a quick disconnect hose.? I have a Mr. Buddy heater with a quick connect.? I use that on low down to below zero and it's very warm.? It's an inexpensive and simple option that works.? It does create condensation on the metal, as pointed out above, but leaving a window cracked cuts down on that.? Even with a window open in sub-zero temps it can be too warm sleeping under blankets.
?
?
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Slim Potatohead, a Canadian Aliner camper on Youtube, great shows, by the way. He uses those plsstic foam noodles, the toys, and fits those in, also for desert windstorms. Barbara
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You know there are trade offs for using the buddy heaters vs the installed propane furnace.? The buddy heaters are quiet and more efficient since they vent indoors.? But one by product of combustion is water, so using a buddy heater will result in a lot more water condensing on the metal or glass inside the trailer.? Plus the other by product is CO, and they do say not to use the buddy heaters while sleeping.? So be aware of that if you decide to go the buddy heater route.
I find the recommendation to use the filter for the buddy heater a bit bizarre.? So you have contaminants in your propane flow and need a filter to remove them.? But no other propane appliance has any recommendation for a filter.? So you'll just let all the other propane appliances malfunction if the propane is contaminated?
The main contaminant is supposedly oil in the gas.? This does happen, and it's happened to me.? I replaced the propane regulator at one point, and laid the disconnected propane line on the ground.? About a tablespoon of heavy oil slowly leaked out of the hose.? When the hose is connected up, theres a low spot in it between the tank and the place it's fastened to the frame, and the oil had collected in that spot.? So now what I do as part of my annual maintenance is to disconnect the propane line and lay it on the ground overnight.? So far i haven't seen oil in the hose a second time.
Just my opinion, but I think you're better off disconnecting your propane line to check for oil than getting a filter.
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Except for the stove top burners, the other appliances don't expel burning products in the trailer. The refrigerator, hot water heater and furnace exhaust burning products outside. You aren't breathing them.
Eric
On 11/5/2019 1:53 PM, Steve T wrote:
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You know there are trade offs for using the buddy heaters vs the installed propane furnace.? The buddy heaters are quiet and more efficient since they vent indoors.? But one by product of
combustion is water, so using a buddy heater will result in a lot more water condensing on the metal or glass inside the trailer.? Plus the other by product is CO, and they do say not to use the buddy heaters while sleeping.? So be aware of that if you decide
to go the buddy heater route.
I find the recommendation to use the filter for the buddy heater a bit bizarre.? So you have contaminants in your propane flow and need a filter to remove them.? But no other propane appliance has any recommendation for a filter.? So you'll just let all the
other propane appliances malfunction if the propane is contaminated?
The main contaminant is supposedly oil in the gas.? This does happen, and it's happened to me.? I replaced the propane regulator at one point, and laid the disconnected propane line on the ground.? About a tablespoon of heavy oil slowly leaked out of the hose.?
When the hose is connected up, theres a low spot in it between the tank and the place it's fastened to the frame, and the oil had collected in that spot.? So now what I do as part of my annual maintenance is to disconnect the propane line and lay it on the
ground overnight.? So far i haven't seen oil in the hose a second time.
Just my opinion, but I think you're better off disconnecting your propane line to check for oil than getting a filter.
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A lot of talk about Buddy heaters acts like Aliner are air tight. I have a brand new 2020 Titanium12 it’s been used once and I really like it. I had heard they were drafty I was shocked about how much air leaked on brand new weather striping. I wouldn’t get to excited about the Buddy doing you in. I’ve used brick type heaters in motor homes that were a lot more air tight than Aliner with a window cracked with good results in fact I’m here writing about it. ?M
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On Nov 5, 2019, at 2:53 PM, Steve T < srtimm@...> wrote: You know there are trade offs for using the buddy heaters vs the installed propane furnace.? The buddy heaters are quiet and more efficient since they vent indoors.? But one by product of combustion is water, so using a buddy heater will result in a lot more water condensing on the metal or glass inside the trailer.? Plus the other by product is CO, and they do say not to use the buddy heaters while sleeping.? So be aware of that if you decide to go the buddy heater route.
I find the recommendation to use the filter for the buddy heater a bit bizarre.? So you have contaminants in your propane flow and need a filter to remove them.? But no other propane appliance has any recommendation for a filter.? So you'll just let all the other propane appliances malfunction if the propane is contaminated?
The main contaminant is supposedly oil in the gas.? This does happen, and it's happened to me.? I replaced the propane regulator at one point, and laid the disconnected propane line on the ground.? About a tablespoon of heavy oil slowly leaked out of the hose.? When the hose is connected up, theres a low spot in it between the tank and the place it's fastened to the frame, and the oil had collected in that spot.? So now what I do as part of my annual maintenance is to disconnect the propane line and lay it on the ground overnight.? So far i haven't seen oil in the hose a second time.
Just my opinion, but I think you're better off disconnecting your propane line to check for oil than getting a filter.
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Eric KE6US
Don DeRyke
Carl