|
Sorry, I wrote the message on the web page and i sent it too
quickly. Here's it again :
Hi, I've some trouble adjusting the clearance of the headstock
bearings on my lathe. It's a WBL210 Weiss lathe ; max Dia 200mm,
300mm between centers, roughly a 8x12" lathe of the same design as
the 7x12 ones.
?
The surface finish was not as smooth as expected: even with
shallow pass with slow motion. It was looking like a ~2mm pitch
thread with a very low roughness pretty lower than 0.1mm.
Probably the leadscrew pitch amplified by the gear train and some
play in between the spindle bearings.
Tightening the nut at the end of the arbor improved the situation
but I couldn't manage to tighten it farther. The bearings seemed
to be blocked by something. The drawing doesn't show any obstacle
however. the bearings are 30206, tapered roller type.
On to the other hand, 6 months ago I attempted to troubleshoot the
spindle of my milling machine (model? VM18L from the same
manufacturer), ending by tuning the deep groove bearing
clearances. It went the same way as the lathe. But since I didn't
notice any discrepancy, I let it as it was and remounted the
spindle.
Several times, I've replaced tapered bearings on the wheel hubs of
my cars without any extracting issues. They went well adjusted but
not needing any great force to get them.
I assume that the accuracy of a machine spindle being greater than
a car's hub one, leads to a tighter adjustment. But, does it
really need an extractor or is that a specificity of this
manufacturer or even a bad quality level ?
I found some clues on
.
The bearings are 6206 deep groove or 7206 angular contact ones. The
procedure uses both an extractor or a press but doesn't specify the
force. I'm puzzled by the fact that I can't manage to tighten a bit
more the nut because, normally, the external bearing should slide
against the shaft otherwise it should be impossible to adjust the
clearance.
Please, may a specialist bring some light over all of this and/or
provide other URL to relevant information ?
TIA
|
PRR, Here may
be some useful information...
On 1/29/2025 10:13 AM, Pierre-Raymond
Rondelle via groups.io wrote:
Sorry, I wrote the message on the web page and i sent it too
quickly. Here's it again :
Hi, I've some trouble adjusting the clearance of the
headstock bearings on my lathe. It's a WBL210 Weiss lathe ; max
Dia 200mm, 300mm between centers, roughly a 8x12" lathe of the
same design as the 7x12 ones.
?
The surface finish was not as smooth as expected: even with
shallow pass with slow motion. It was looking like a ~2mm pitch
thread with a very low roughness pretty lower than 0.1mm.
Probably the leadscrew pitch amplified by the gear train and
some play in between the spindle bearings.
Tightening the nut at the end of the
arbor improved the situation but I couldn't manage to
tighten it farther. The bearings seemed to be blocked by
something. The drawing doesn't show any obstacle however.
the bearings are 30206, tapered roller type.
There are several gears and spacers
between the 2 bearings that have "STACKED TOGETHER" to create
a "SOLID" column of material to be squeezed by the adjusting
nut.? You have to thin down one of the spacers due to the
different dimensions of the new bearings.
On to the other hand, 6 months ago I attempted to
troubleshoot the spindle of my milling machine (model? VM18L
from the same manufacturer), ending by tuning the deep groove
bearing clearances. It went the same way as the lathe. But since
I didn't notice any discrepancy, I let it as it was and
remounted the spindle.
Several times, I've replaced tapered
bearings on the wheel hubs of my cars without any extracting
issues. They went well adjusted but not needing any great
force to get them.
Your wheel bearings do not have a solid
spacer between the inner and outer wheel bearings, the lathe
does by the accumulation of the 2-speed drive gears and spacers,(do you have a 2-speed lever on the back or
direct drive)
I assume that the accuracy of a machine spindle being greater
than a car's hub one, leads to a tighter adjustment. But, does
it really need an extractor or is that a specificity of this
manufacturer or even a bad quality level ?
I found some clues on
.
The bearings are 6206 deep groove or 7206 angular contact ones.
The procedure uses both an extractor or a press but doesn't
specify the force. I'm puzzled by the fact that I can't manage to
tighten a bit more the nut because, normally, the external bearing
should slide against the shaft otherwise it should be impossible
to adjust the clearance.
Perhaps search YouTube for "mini lathe
angular contact bearing" and reveal this -->?
?
<--. Maybe 'click it even'. Good luck on your final
answers.
?
Please, may a specialist bring some light over all of this and/or
provide other URL to relevant information ?
TIA
|
The word preload is not best in world on any thing.?
?
Most will over titeon.??
Some manuals I had said tieon till finger back off one two notch on bearing retain nut and so bear spins .?
?
If you over titeon the bearing it will stop? (it needs room for heat expansion).?
?
FYI Most mini lathe have a class 1 ball bearing. It better to have class 3 or greater. I found class 8 is just over kill and very costly too
?
Dave?
|
Use seal ball bearing?
On motor they over 20,000 hour of life.?
A good brand is 40,000 hours.?
?
At time I put in what had and had shorter life.
?
Dave?
|
Raymond ??result was like? ? However, nice lathe.
Johannes ? Lavoll. ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 29 Jan 2025, at 08:07, Pierre-Raymond Rondelle via groups.io <pierreraymondrondelle@...> wrote:
result was like
|
Most can not tell you why preload came form.
?
Do you have any idea???
Most will gusse wrong.
?
That why I do not like the word preload.?
?
Dave?
?
On Wed, Jan 29, 2025 at 11:01 AM, Johannes wrote:
Raymond
??result was like? ?
However, nice lathe.
Johannes ? Lavoll. ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
?
?
On 29 Jan 2025, at 08:07, Pierre-Raymond Rondelle via groups.io <pierreraymondrondelle@...> wrote:
result was like
|
Johannes, I began the thread on the group.io web page, dunno what I
did. The message disappeared, I found it in the message sent list.
Please read the following one.
Sorry for the trouble.
On 29.01.25 20:00, Johannes via
groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Raymond
??result was like? ?
However, nice lathe.
Johannes ? Lavoll. ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
|
Jon, Thanks for your reply
I annexed the detailed drawings of both heads.
About your 1st remark : No, there are no parts in between the
bearings. Confirmed by the picture. What is in the middle is a
bracket supporting the Hall transducer, the magnet is stock on the
shaft.
As per the Arceurotrade dismounting guide, everything seems to me
mounted with a press, which is peculiar for me. I'd agree for both
external bearing rings and the chuck side inner one but not for
the inner one of the opposite side. Otherwise no preloading would
accurately be possible. As far I don't fully understand, I won't
force and/or heat the housing to unstick the bearings.
I'm gonna go to youtube as you suggested.
On 29.01.25 17:50, Jon Rus via
groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
(....)
There are several gears and spacers
between the 2 bearings that have "STACKED TOGETHER" to
create a "SOLID" column of material to be squeezed by the
adjusting nut.? You have to thin down one of the spacers due
to the different dimensions of the new bearings.
(...)
Your wheel bearings do not have a solid
spacer between the inner and outer wheel bearings, the lathe
does by the accumulation of the 2-speed drive gears and
spacers,(do you have a 2-speed
lever on the back or direct drive)
(...)
Perhaps search YouTube for "mini lathe
angular contact bearing" and reveal this -->?
?
<--. Maybe 'click it even'. Good luck on your final
answers.
|
Like break down headstock.?
?
Looks like my head stock
?
Thank you?
Dave?
?
?
On Wed, Jan 29, 2025 at 01:55 PM, Pierre-Raymond Rondelle wrote:
Jon, Thanks for your reply
I annexed the detailed drawings of both heads.
About your 1st remark : No, there are no parts in between the bearings. Confirmed by the picture. What is in the middle is a bracket supporting the Hall transducer, the magnet is stock on the shaft.
As per the Arceurotrade dismounting guide, everything seems to me mounted with a press, which is peculiar for me. I'd agree for both external bearing rings and the chuck side inner one but not for the inner one of the opposite side. Otherwise no preloading would accurately be possible. As far I don't fully understand, I won't force and/or heat the housing to unstick the bearings.
I'm gonna go to youtube as you suggested.
?
?
On 29.01.25 17:50, Jon Rus via groups.io wrote:
(....)
There are several gears and spacers between the 2 bearings that have "STACKED TOGETHER" to create a "SOLID" column of material to be squeezed by the adjusting nut.? You have to thin down one of the spacers due to the different dimensions of the new bearings.
(...)
Your wheel bearings do not have a solid spacer between the inner and outer wheel bearings, the lathe does by the accumulation of the 2-speed drive gears and spacers,(do you have a 2-speed lever on the back or direct drive)
(...)
Perhaps search YouTube for "mini lathe angular contact bearing" and reveal this -->? ? <--. Maybe 'click it even'. Good luck on your final answers.q
|
Jon, Interesting vids.
They tend to confirm that a press is needed for dismounting and
remounting. However, no figures are provided concerning the applied
forces.
Referring to the ISO286 adjustment charts and a general guide about
bearings (),
I see that external tolerances are very low, around 2 to 5 ?m, that
the inner rings should match a k5 or k6 tolerance range arbor and
the outer ring should be mounted in an H7 or K7 bore. That said, the
adjustments are qualified as "temporary" meaning that they could be
disassembled with a mallet. In practice, they are almost stuck.
Puzzling !
From my understanding, it should be possible to push the inner ring
a little bit farther with the nut. But it blocks !
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Perhaps search YouTube for "mini lathe
angular contact bearing" and reveal this -->? ?
<--. Maybe 'click it even'. Good luck on your final
answers
|
Hello PR,
My experience with these bearings is
that they can be hand tight, up to press tight.? On an automobile
the bearing is slip fit on the spindle and press tight on the hub,
so use your judgement carefully.
Do you have a 3" spindle mount or 4"
spindle mount???
If you have the smaller 3" spindle, you
can goto your favorite BigBox home store, (lowes, Home Depot,
Menards, etc.), and buy a small piece of 4" PVC Pipe x 12" long
about... and a long enough piece of all-thread rod, 30" about, +
2-3 matching nuts and washers? to create a "Screw-Press" type of
press with the 4" pipe over the 3" end of the spindle, with the
long screw down the middle, and a small 2x4 piece of wood, maybe
6" approx, on the other end of the 4" pipe and a bushing of sorts
that you would make before beginning this process that fits just
in the small end of the spindle to lock in the inner diameter and
be the same as the outer diameter slightly smaller so as to pass
through the bearing there.
1. Before disassembly, make a special
bushing to go into the small end of the spindle so that it will
grab just the edge of the spindle and still pass through the inner
diameter of the bearing, include a center hole large enough to
allow the threaded rod to go through as well..
2. Stack the parts collected like
this....
??? a. Nut and washer on 1 end of the
threaded rod, pass through a piece of 2x4, then through the 4" pvc
pipe.
??? b. take this setup to the lathe and
pass through the spindle from the big 3" end all through the
headstock.
??? c. Place your special bushing on
the small end of the spindle and over the threaded rod and install
the last washer and nut.
??? d. Tighten this mess up until the
spindle is drawn out of the headstock.
??? e. Examine the spindle shaft area
and look for burrs or shiney spots that might indicate what your
problem(s) might be.
3. Remove any burrs you find, if you
see shiney spots near where the bearings ride, sand or polish or
file them a little bit until the bearing will slide smoothly but
snugly, don't remove too much material.
4. Reassemble in reverse of disassembly
5. If this still does not give you your
desired results, do it again and look closer at the problem areas.
If you have a 4" flange, you will need
a larger pipe probably, maybe a stack of 4" pvc pipe coupler
fittings,(without the center pipe stop ring), to allow the spindle
to be removed through their center area. Glue and tape them edge
to edge carefully and allow them to dry a day or 2 before using
them.
Good Luck
On 2/7/2025 10:29 AM, Pierre-Raymond
Rondelle via groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Jon, Interesting vids.
They tend to confirm that a press is needed for dismounting and
remounting. However, no figures are provided concerning the
applied forces.
Referring to the ISO286 adjustment charts and a general guide
about bearings (),
I see that external tolerances are very low, around 2 to 5 ?m,
that the inner rings should match a k5 or k6 tolerance range arbor
and the outer ring should be mounted in an H7 or K7 bore. That
said, the adjustments are qualified as "temporary" meaning that
they could be disassembled with a mallet. In practice, they are
almost stuck. Puzzling !
From my understanding, it should be possible to push the inner
ring a little bit farther with the nut. But it blocks !
Perhaps search YouTube for "mini
lathe angular contact bearing" and reveal this -->? ?
<--. Maybe 'click it even'. Good luck on your final
answers
|
If look engineering press fit ball bearing some very light press for heat build-up so ball bearing does seize up.?
Other times they not ver good at machining for ball bearing.? A 1? ball bearing need a press fit from 0.000,1 to 0.000,5 ± 0.0001
?
Dave?
|
What this whole thread is overlooking is the fact that the OEM bearings are deep groove ball bearings; the cheapest option! An upgrade to angular contact bearings gives more thrust resistance to the spindle, resulting in the lathe becoming more rigid. Tapered roller bearings would be the most rigid, but, sealing them is much more complex.
?
I upgraded mine to angular contact bearings years ago & have been happy with the results! My preload setting method is to simply adjust preload for slight heating at full speed.
?
The only benefit to higher precision bearings in the spindle is reducing wallet weight!?
?
?
|
I like the part The only benefit to higher precision bearings in the spindle is reducing wallet weight!?
?
This ball bearing I purchased 1,000 at a time in class 3 / motor grade. It very good ball bearing.?
?
Dave?
?
Here basic chart on ball bearing?
?
On Fri, Feb 7, 2025 at 04:49 PM, Roy wrote:
What this whole thread is overlooking is the fact that the OEM bearings are deep groove ball bearings; the cheapest option! An upgrade to angular contact bearings gives more thrust resistance to the spindle, resulting in the lathe becoming more rigid. Tapered roller bearings would be the most rigid, but, sealing them is much more complex.
?
I upgraded mine to angular contact bearings years ago & have been happy with the results! My preload setting method is to simply adjust preload for slight heating at full speed.
?
The only benefit to higher precision bearings in the spindle is reducing wallet weight!?
?
?
|
I believe the OP has tried to install
tapered roller bearings and can not get the preload just right.? I
could be wrong tho, even very wrong is possible.....
On 2/7/2025 7:49 PM, Roy via groups.io
wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
What this whole thread is overlooking is the fact that the
OEM bearings are deep groove ball bearings; the cheapest option!
An upgrade to angular contact bearings gives more thrust
resistance to the spindle, resulting in the lathe becoming more
rigid. Tapered roller bearings would be the most rigid, but,
sealing them is much more complex.
?
I upgraded mine to angular contact bearings years ago &
have been happy with the results! My preload setting method is
to simply adjust preload for slight heating at full speed.
?
The only benefit to higher precision bearings in the spindle
is reducing wallet weight!?
?
?
|
I am on the fence about ACR vs TR,?
Did you get rubber seals on your
bearings??
Do you oil them regularly??
Maybe 1 drop before each use?
Does oil leak out the bottom of the
bearing or middle of the headstock?
Grease in TR at least is good for a
while, maybe even a year before needing repacking like wheel
bearings.
How are you working with them
day-to-day, project to project??
Thanks in advance
John
On 2/7/2025 7:49 PM, Roy via groups.io
wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
What this whole thread is overlooking is the fact that the
OEM bearings are deep groove ball bearings; the cheapest option!
An upgrade to angular contact bearings gives more thrust
resistance to the spindle, resulting in the lathe becoming more
rigid. Tapered roller bearings would be the most rigid, but,
sealing them is much more complex.
?
I upgraded mine to angular
contact bearings years ago & have been happy with the
results! My preload setting method is to simply
adjust preload for slight heating at full speed.
?
The only benefit to higher precision bearings in the spindle
is reducing wallet weight!?
?
?
|
My tapered rollers have been in for 10 years. I haven't touched them in 3 1/2 years since I installed my els. I pulled the rear when I had the nuts off to install some parts for that and in the prior 6 1/2 years hadn't done a thing. They're fine and still as smooth as the day I installed them and maybe even smoother. ?The preload has never needed adjustment after a couple days of getting it set and my lathe will hold less than .001" over 12 inches. We're talking about bearings meant for vehicle use. Carrying 2 tons and absorbing constant impacts and lasting tens of thousands of miles. I packed mine with synthetic bearing grease. It's still there. Our little lathes turn a couple thousand rpm tops and how often are you running it wide open? ?And how long are you running it? ?We're not talking the equivalent of a hundred plus mile a day, five day a week commute here. We're maybe covering the same as a hundred miles a year, maybe. ?And at a lot less load. The angular contact are probably easier to install from what I've read as there's no need to sand the spindle for the slip fit tapered rollers require but either will last a lifetime with extremely minimal if any required maintenance if property installed.?
On Feb 7, 2025 at 11:04?PM -0500, Jon Rus via groups.io <byghtn5@...>, wrote:
I am on the fence about ACR vs TR,?
Did you get rubber seals on your bearings??
Do you oil them regularly??
Maybe 1 drop before each use?
Does oil leak out the bottom of the bearing or middle of the headstock?
Grease in TR at least is good for a while, maybe even a year before needing repacking like wheel bearings.
How are you working with them day-to-day, project to project??
Thanks in advance
John
On 2/7/2025 7:49 PM, Roy via groups.io wrote:
What this whole thread is overlooking is the fact that the OEM bearings are deep groove ball bearings; the cheapest option! An upgrade to angular contact bearings gives more thrust resistance to the spindle, resulting in the lathe becoming more rigid. Tapered roller bearings would be the most rigid, but, sealing them is much more complex.
?
I upgraded mine to angular contact bearings years ago & have been happy with the results! My preload setting method is to simply adjust preload for slight heating at full speed.
?
The only benefit to higher precision bearings in the spindle is reducing wallet weight!?
?
?
|
Thanks Ryan for your experience and
results report
Is your lathe a 2-Speed and are you
running metal 2-speed gears as well? How is the gear meshing
noise?
TKS, John
On 2/8/2025 1:05 AM, Ryan H via
groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
My tapered rollers have been in for 10 years. I haven't
touched them in 3 1/2 years since I installed my els. I pulled
the rear when I had the nuts off to install some parts for
that and in the prior 6 1/2 years hadn't done a thing. They're
fine and still as smooth as the day I installed them and maybe
even smoother. ?The preload has never needed adjustment after
a couple days of getting it set and my lathe will hold less
than .001" over 12 inches. We're talking about bearings meant
for vehicle use. Carrying 2 tons and absorbing constant
impacts and lasting tens of thousands of miles. I packed mine
with synthetic bearing grease. It's still there. Our little
lathes turn a couple thousand rpm tops and how often are you
running it wide open? ?And how long are you running it? ?We're
not talking the equivalent of a hundred plus mile a day, five
day a week commute here. We're maybe covering the same as a
hundred miles a year, maybe. ?And at a lot less load. The
angular contact are probably easier to install from what I've
read as there's no need to sand the spindle for the slip fit
tapered rollers require but either will last a lifetime with
extremely minimal if any required maintenance if property
installed.?
On Feb 7, 2025 at 11:04?PM -0500,
Jon Rus via groups.io <byghtn5@...>,
wrote:
I am on the fence about ACR vs
TR,?
Did you get rubber seals on your
bearings??
Do you oil them regularly??
Maybe 1 drop before each use?
Does oil leak out the bottom of
the bearing or middle of the headstock?
Grease in TR at least is good for
a while, maybe even a year before needing repacking like
wheel bearings.
How are you working with them
day-to-day, project to project??
Thanks in advance
John
On 2/7/2025 7:49 PM, Roy via
groups.io wrote:
What this whole thread is overlooking is the fact that
the OEM bearings are deep groove ball bearings; the
cheapest option! An upgrade to angular contact bearings
gives more thrust resistance to the spindle, resulting in
the lathe becoming more rigid. Tapered roller bearings
would be the most rigid, but, sealing them is much more
complex.
?
I upgraded mine to
angular contact bearings years ago & have been
happy with the results! My preload setting
method is to simply adjust preload for slight heating at
full speed.
?
The only benefit to higher precision bearings in the
spindle is reducing wallet weight!?
?
?
|
Hi John.?
?
Yep, my lathe is a two speed one and I have the LMS metal gears in it. To me the gears are pretty quiet. If I grab the chuck and rock it back and forth there's some gear clunk naturally but running I don't find it loud at all. The plastic drive pulley on the motor made a more annoying noise before I swapped it for a metal one... ?But I have to qualify that by saying I think I got a bad plastic gear because it broke within the first few minutes so I didn't really get a chance to get used to the sound of the plastic. Really all I know is the metal gear sound.?
?
I had the headstock off about 4 years ago (so it had been 6 since I'd been in it) when I really aligning everything and the grease I'd put in was still good. I'd used the same moly wheel bearing grease on those parts. I smeared a fresh coat around while I had it off just because but it didn't need it.?
?
Ryan
On Feb 8, 2025 at 1:13?AM -0500, Jon Rus via groups.io <byghtn5@...>, wrote:
Thanks Ryan for your experience and results report
Is your lathe a 2-Speed and are you running metal 2-speed gears as well? How is the gear meshing noise?
TKS, John
On 2/8/2025 1:05 AM, Ryan H via groups.io wrote:
My tapered rollers have been in for 10 years. I haven't touched them in 3 1/2 years since I installed my els. I pulled the rear when I had the nuts off to install some parts for that and in the prior 6 1/2 years hadn't done a thing. They're fine and still as smooth as the day I installed them and maybe even smoother. ?The preload has never needed adjustment after a couple days of getting it set and my lathe will hold less than .001" over 12 inches. We're talking about bearings meant for vehicle use. Carrying 2 tons and absorbing constant impacts and lasting tens of thousands of miles. I packed mine with synthetic bearing grease. It's still there. Our little lathes turn a couple thousand rpm tops and how often are you running it wide open? ?And how long are you running it? ?We're not talking the equivalent of a hundred plus mile a day, five day a week commute here. We're maybe covering the same as a hundred miles a year, maybe. ?And at a lot less load. The angular contact are probably easier to install from what I've read as there's no need to sand the spindle for the slip fit tapered rollers require but either will last a lifetime with extremely minimal if any required maintenance if property installed.?
On Feb 7, 2025 at 11:04?PM -0500, Jon Rus via groups.io <byghtn5@...>, wrote:
I am on the fence about ACR vs TR,?
Did you get rubber seals on your bearings??
Do you oil them regularly??
Maybe 1 drop before each use?
Does oil leak out the bottom of the bearing or middle of the headstock?
Grease in TR at least is good for a while, maybe even a year before needing repacking like wheel bearings.
How are you working with them day-to-day, project to project??
Thanks in advance
John
On 2/7/2025 7:49 PM, Roy via groups.io wrote:
What this whole thread is overlooking is the fact that the OEM bearings are deep groove ball bearings; the cheapest option! An upgrade to angular contact bearings gives more thrust resistance to the spindle, resulting in the lathe becoming more rigid. Tapered roller bearings would be the most rigid, but, sealing them is much more complex.
?
I upgraded mine to angular contact bearings years ago & have been happy with the results! My preload setting method is to simply adjust preload for slight heating at full speed.
?
The only benefit to higher precision bearings in the spindle is reducing wallet weight!?
?
?
|
Roy,
I already have tapered bearings but my problem is that they are
mounted tight and I can't manage to reduce the clearance between
them.
On 08.02.25 01:49, Roy via groups.io
wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
What this whole thread is overlooking is the fact that the
OEM bearings are deep groove ball bearings; the cheapest option!
An upgrade to angular contact bearings gives more thrust
resistance to the spindle, resulting in the lathe becoming more
rigid. Tapered roller bearings would be the most rigid, but,
sealing them is much more complex.
?
I upgraded mine to angular contact bearings years ago &
have been happy with the results! My preload setting method is
to simply adjust preload for slight heating at full speed.
|
davesmith1800
Johannes