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"tuning up" a mini lathe
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People here and on other forums often talk about having had to clean,
fix, shim, adjust, tweak a new lathe in order to make it accurate and
useable. And that being willing to do so lets you start with a less
expensive mill, from HF or Vevor, say, rather than one from LMS or
Grizzly.
But I've yet to see an overall guide to what all of that work entails,
and how its done.
Does anyone have a pointer to a video, or a blog, or similar, that goes
through all of what might be entailed? It's hard to convince myself I
want to go through the effort, without understanding it better. I'm
pretty sure I have the skills. But I might not have the patience or
the equipment or tools.
And: is it always possible for the home hobby user to fully adjust a
cheaper mill? Are there some problems that just can't be fixed?
paul
=----------------------
paul fox, pgf@... (arlington, ma, where it's 41.4 degrees)
|
Great question Paul.? I sure hope you get some good answers because I can also use some help getting my mini dialed in.
Tom
On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 8:16 AM Paul Fox < pgf@...> wrote: People here and on other forums often talk about having had to clean,
fix, shim, adjust, tweak a new lathe in order to make it accurate and
useable.? And that being willing to do so lets you start with a less
expensive mill, from HF or Vevor, say, rather than one from LMS or
Grizzly.
But I've yet to see an overall guide to what all of that work entails,
and how its done.
Does anyone have a pointer to a video, or a blog, or similar, that goes
through all of what might be entailed?? It's hard to convince myself I
want to go through the effort, without understanding it better.? I'm
pretty sure I have the skills.? But I might not have the patience or
the equipment or tools.
And:? is it always possible for the home hobby user to fully adjust a
cheaper mill?? Are there some problems that just can't be fixed?
paul
=----------------------
paul fox, pgf@... (arlington, ma, where it's 41.4 degrees)
|
Well I cannot speak specifically to a mill, Home Shop Machinist has a great book “The Complete Mini-Lathe Workshop” by Ted Hansen; a lot of the chapters deal with making the lathe more accurate and robust. ?Pretty amazing array of tooling and add-ons.
?It's currently their featured book: |
This also has some good info on setting it up and tuning it:
(Fox Chapel is the American publisher of The Workshop Practice series published in England; I don’t have one to hand so I don’t remember the publisher. )
On Jan 4, 2024, at 9:16 AM, Paul Fox <pgf@...> wrote:
People here and on other forums often talk about having had to clean,
fix, shim, adjust, tweak a new lathe in order to make it accurate and
useable. ?And that being willing to do so lets you start with a less
expensive mill, from HF or Vevor, say, rather than one from LMS or
Grizzly.
But I've yet to see an overall guide to what all of that work entails,
and how its done.
Does anyone have a pointer to a video, or a blog, or similar, that goes
through all of what might be entailed? ?It's hard to convince myself I
want to go through the effort, without understanding it better. ?I'm
pretty sure I have the skills. ?But I might not have the patience or
the equipment or tools.
And: ?is it always possible for the home hobby user to fully adjust a
cheaper mill? ?Are there some problems that just can't be fixed?
paul
=----------------------
paul fox, pgf@... (arlington, ma, where it's 41.4 degrees)
--?
Bruce Johnson
The less a man knows about how sausages and laws are made, the easier it is to steal his vote and give him botulism.
My approach is very unpopular here. ?I wait until I notice a problem, then I fix it. ? Sometimes you might have some kind of issue like the head not being exactly where it should be on the bed but maybe you are making smaller parts and a 1 in 1,000 error does not show up on your 20mm long part but it might show up on a 220 mm long part.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jan 4, 2024, at 8:39?AM, Thomas Key <takey89@...> wrote:
Great question Paul.? I sure hope you get some good answers because I can also use some help getting my mini dialed in.
Tom On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 8:16 AM Paul Fox < pgf@...> wrote: People here and on other forums often talk about having had to clean,
fix, shim, adjust, tweak a new lathe in order to make it accurate and
useable.? And that being willing to do so lets you start with a less
expensive mill, from HF or Vevor, say, rather than one from LMS or
Grizzly.
But I've yet to see an overall guide to what all of that work entails,
and how its done.
Does anyone have a pointer to a video, or a blog, or similar, that goes
through all of what might be entailed?? It's hard to convince myself I
want to go through the effort, without understanding it better.? I'm
pretty sure I have the skills.? But I might not have the patience or
the equipment or tools.
And:? is it always possible for the home hobby user to fully adjust a
cheaper mill?? Are there some problems that just can't be fixed?
paul
=----------------------
paul fox,?pgf@...?(arlington, ma, where it's 41.4 degrees)
|
The "mini-lathe.com" site was, I think, the first "go to" site for many years.? I just checked the site and it looks completely different, and very sparse, compared to what I remember.
I checked the "Internet Archive" for this site and the last capture they have before it changed and lost almost all information was November 26, 2022.? Here it is.? There is a LOT here.? But when I selected "adjustments", it seemed sparse and not the original.
So, I arbitrarily picked an earlier date, April 16, 2021, and it is MUCH better.? If you look at "Adjustments" here, you will find all sorts of things with "Adjusting the gibs" topping the list.? And the site has many links to others.
"Gadget Builder" has a wealth of mainly various accessories you can make.
Little Machine Shop is another place you should get familiar with.? They have "Learning Center" and "Info Center" tabs but are more about using the machines than upgrading them.
There is a vast amount of info out there on this, and you can cast a wide net.? And enough YouTubes to make your eyes bleed.
But this brings us to a more basic question.? None of us can really tell you what YOU should or should not do.? Some people use the lathe right out of the box and don't do anything to it.? That can be due to the quality variability with some just being better by luck from how it came out of the factory.? The other big variable is what YOU plan to do with it.? People have different needs for accuracies and the MANY features that can be made for these.
It might be best to just start "making some chips" and then see if you think something needs improvement.? And then search for a solution to just that issue.? If you are new to this, learning how to grind lathe tools is a good first step and, for these small lathes, I recommend HSS tool bits as opposed to carbide or carbide inserts.? Many of the carbide tools in the form of a complete tool shank are total junk.? Inserts can be fine, but I just think most will get better results with properly ground HSS bits.
Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer
On Thursday, January 4, 2024 at 08:40:00 AM PST, Thomas Key <takey89@...> wrote:
Great question Paul.? I sure hope you get some good answers because I can also use some help getting my mini dialed in.
Tom
On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 8:16 AM Paul Fox < pgf@...> wrote: People here and on other forums often talk about having had to clean,
fix, shim, adjust, tweak a new lathe in order to make it accurate and
useable.? And that being willing to do so lets you start with a less
expensive mill, from HF or Vevor, say, rather than one from LMS or
Grizzly.
But I've yet to see an overall guide to what all of that work entails,
and how its done.
Does anyone have a pointer to a video, or a blog, or similar, that goes
through all of what might be entailed?? It's hard to convince myself I
want to go through the effort, without understanding it better.? I'm
pretty sure I have the skills.? But I might not have the patience or
the equipment or tools.
And:? is it always possible for the home hobby user to fully adjust a
cheaper mill?? Are there some problems that just can't be fixed?
paul
=----------------------
paul fox, pgf@... (arlington, ma, where it's 41.4 degrees)
|
You find most accuracy problems is with operator.? I helps if lathe is right but good operator can over come this problem.?
It like DRO on cross slide it is only aid to new person all do is look at marks not number.? The flex in just everything comes in play and you have adjust.?
Dave?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Paul Fox
8:16am? ?
People here and on other forums often talk about having had to clean,
fix, shim, adjust, tweak a new lathe in order to make it accurate and
useable. And that being willing to do so lets you start with a less
expensive mill, from HF or Vevor, say, rather than one from LMS or
Grizzly
|
Frank Hoose sold mini-lathe.com earlier this year;
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bruce wrote: > Well I cannot speak specifically to a mill, Home Shop Machinist has a Argh!! I can't believe I wrote "mill" twice in my post. I meant "lathe", every time. > great book “The Complete Mini-Lathe Workshop” by Ted Hansen; a lot of the > chapters deal with making the lathe more accurate and robust. Pretty > amazing array of tooling and add-ons. > It's currently their featured book: Thanks! paul > > [1]Hansen-Book-NEW.png > [2]Shop The Home Shop Machinist, > A Metalworking Magazine > homeshopmachinist.net > > This also has some good info on setting it up and tuning it: > > [3]978-1-56523-695-0.jpg > [4]Mini-Lathe for Home Machinists > foxchapelpublishing.com > > (Fox Chapel is the American publisher of The Workshop Practice series > published in England; I don’t have one to hand so I don’t remember the > publisher. ) > > On Jan 4, 2024, at 9:16 AM, Paul Fox <pgf@...> wrote: > People here and on other forums often talk about having had to clean, > fix, shim, adjust, tweak a new lathe in order to make it accurate and > useable. And that being willing to do so lets you start with a less > expensive mill, from HF or Vevor, say, rather than one from LMS or > Grizzly. > > But I've yet to see an overall guide to what all of that work entails, > and how its done. > > Does anyone have a pointer to a video, or a blog, or similar, that goes > through all of what might be entailed? It's hard to convince myself I > want to go through the effort, without understanding it better. I'm > pretty sure I have the skills. But I might not have the patience or > the equipment or tools. > > And: is it always possible for the home hobby user to fully adjust a > cheaper mill? Are there some problems that just can't be fixed? > > paul > =---------------------- > paul fox, pgf@... (arlington, ma, where it's 41.4 > degrees) > > -- > Bruce Johnson > > The less a man knows about how sausages and laws are made, the easier it > is to steal his vote and give him botulism. > > Attachments: > > ? [5]Hansen-Book-NEW.png > ? [6]978-1-56523-695-0.jpg > > > > References > > Visible links > 1. > 2. > 3. > 4. > 5. /g/7x12MiniLathe/attachment/118179/ > 6. /g/7x12MiniLathe/attachment/118179/1 > 7. /g/7x12MiniLathe/message/118179 > 8. mailto: [email protected]?subject=Re:%20Re%3A%20%5B7x12MiniLathe%5D%20%22tuning%20up%22%20a%20mini%20lathe > 9. mailto:bruce.desertrat@...?subject=Private:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5B7x12MiniLathe%5D%20%22tuning%20up%22%20a%20mini%20lathe > 10. /mt/103525200/1007597 > 11. /g/7x12MiniLathe/post > 12. /g/7x12MiniLathe/editsub/1007597 > 13. mailto: [email protected] > 14. /g/7x12MiniLathe/leave/12906700/1007597/484577620/xyzzy=---------------------- paul fox, pgf@... (arlington, ma, where it's 42.8 degrees)
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Thanks for the info about Frank Hoose selling the mini-lathe site.? That explains it.? I don't know why so much information is now gone unless I'm not using the site correctly.? Thanks to the "Internet Archive" (A.K.A 'Wayback Machine") we can see the site as it once was.
Charels E. "Chuck" Kinzer
On Thursday, January 4, 2024 at 09:40:57 AM PST, ChazzC <chaz-creswell@...> wrote:
Frank Hoose sold mini-lathe.com earlier this year;
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Hi Paul,
My advice: proceed with caution.
If you're new to using a lathe/mill you may not have the skills necessary to get the best out of your equipment, let alone understand why, even more so, the skill to make accurate corrections/adjustments/modifications.?
Let my story be a cautionary tale...I bought a Real Bull lathe many years ago. Because of all the chatter about these things needing work right out of the box, I assumed mine would too. After only a few hours of using it, I decided I had detected a problem and set about trying to "fix" it. I read up on the procedure (YouTube wasn't really a thing then), got all the advice I could find, then set about what I hoped would be an improvement. By the time I had finished, the lathe truly did have a serious problem, and I had the hindsight to realize my skills were inadequate to correct it.
I ended up selling the lathe off (with full disclosure to the buyer, of course) and bought a new Micro-Mark 7x16. After a few test cuts I realized the it was displaying the very same characteristics as the Real Bull. The problem was never in the lathe itself, it was in the "nut that holds the handles" (said "nut" being me).
I decided to just use the lathe as it was out of the box, and as Chris Albertson suggested, only try to make a change if it was really needed for what I was trying to do.
The proof of this advice is in the fact that after many, many years, and making no modification to the lathe at all, I am turning out work with far more accuracy and repeatability than I ever have before, despite the lathe being far more "limber" than it was when I first got it.?
Buy from a known supplier, like LMS or Micro-Mark or Grizzly, then use it, a lot, before you decide if you really have a problem.
Just my two cents...
Kurt Severson
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charles wrote:
> So, I arbitrarily picked an earlier date, April 16, 2021, and it is MUCH
> better. If you look at "Adjustments" here, you will find all sorts of
> things with "Adjusting the gibs" topping the list. And the site has many
> links to others.
>
This is exactly the sort of resource I was hoping for. Nice detail, and
good pictures showing what to do and why. Thanks!
=----------------------
paul fox, pgf@... (arlington, ma, where it's 42.5 degrees)
|
I don't recall a single source for all the tune-ups, but I can list what I'd consider to be the essential adjustments, refinements, and upgrades to push your typical 7x10 into the realm of a machine that works like a lathe is supposed to work:
- Thoroughly clean preservative from all areas of the lathe.
- Clean-up (file, scrape) the underside of the ways to a constant thickness so that the carriage moves smoothly with a single bearing plate setting.
- Replace the bearing plates holding the carriage to the ways with brass or bronze plates shimmed to a consistent fit.? (Adjustable mechanisms are not required - it won't wear enough in a lifetime to make the effort worth it.)
- Replace all gib adjustment setscrews and locking nuts with self-locking setscrews. (LMS sells a kit)
- Check all gib strips for flatness and straightness; repair and replace as required.
- If not already equipped, install quick-locking mechanism to the tailstock.
- Check alignment of headstock to bed and tailstock to headstock; adjust as necessary.
There are several other quick things that can be done to improve the speed of operations but they are not essential. Someone mentioned not fixing something until it broken.? Most 7X10s out of the crate have carriages that stick at some points and are sloppy at others on the bed; have bearing plates and gibs that are almost impossible to adjust because of warpage, burrs, and a horrible screw-fixing arrangement, and a tailstock that is exceedingly cumbersome to move and keep aligned.? Those things need to be addressed before you can say your lathe really works.? If you try to live with them you'll be increasingly frustrated and hesitant and annoyed using the lathe, until you get to the point where you say it's not worth the aggravation and you sell it.? The items listed above turned my machine from a gizmo that had to be fought every time (and usually without success) into an actual screw-cutting metal lathe. Kurt Laughlin
|
I have disassembled and partially disassembled my mm 7x16 lathe at least 3 times. First two times was to make it operable. The first time was to basically clean it up. Why ? Because it would not move well at all and would stick and well, not useable.? Next time was to refine things, both cleaning, filing, better adjusting as i under stood more. Partial disassembly was to further get things refined. I did much of this before I got info off of youtube or here on this site. And it continues but getting better as I go. But yea, one really gets to know the machine and the adjustments and such. Now if something is not right I can pretty well figure out what is going wonky.
But the biggest learning curve came from basically two issues occuring at near the same time. One was cutting with chattering and cutting off which was shall I say, interesting. Now, i know about making sure the cutters are adjusted properly to the center of whatever is being worked on. I did this but now realize that even though i adjusted it before on my qctp, it does not remain centered if it comes off and then reinserted. Also found that it's critical when parting off. Now i have no issues when i recheck centering and adjust it before doing any cutting.? Specially on the cutting off blade. Has certainly changed my results big time. Dont assume, check !
george
On Thursday, January 4, 2024 at 09:37:06 AM PST, davesmith1800 <davesmith1@...> wrote:
You find most accuracy problems is with operator.? I helps if lathe is right but good operator can over come this problem.?
It like DRO on cross slide it is only aid to new person all do is look at marks not number.? The flex in just everything comes in play and you have adjust.?
Dave?
Paul Fox
8:16am? ?
People here and on other forums often talk about having had to clean,
fix, shim, adjust, tweak a new lathe in order to make it accurate and
useable. And that being willing to do so lets you start with a less
expensive mill, from HF or Vevor, say, rather than one from LMS or
Grizzly
|
?
I have disassembled and partially disassembled my mm 7x16 lathe at least 3 times. First two times was to make it operable. The first time was to basically clean it up. Why ? Because it would not move well at all and would stick and well, not useable.? Next time was to refine things, both cleaning, filing, better adjusting as i under stood more
There thing I do before run any lathe for no surprise.?? It like center when do center hole you quickly see it off. Simple fix with morse ream 5 minutes later it is right.? Jib adjustment will move as soon as move the lathe cross town? with a lot other nuts and bolts.? Dave?
|
This guy is insane with the effort and
detail in this series of
Pimping the Mini lathe
????
<click it...
is
pretty good as well
^^^^^^??? <Click it....
Another interesting site
?
<click it...
Good Luck on your decision.
Be safe and wear safety glasses!
John
On 1/4/2024 11:16 AM, Paul Fox wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
People here and on other forums often talk about having had to clean,
fix, shim, adjust, tweak a new lathe in order to make it accurate and
useable. And that being willing to do so lets you start with a less
expensive mill, from HF or Vevor, say, rather than one from LMS or
Grizzly.
But I've yet to see an overall guide to what all of that work entails,
and how its done.
Does anyone have a pointer to a video, or a blog, or similar, that goes
through all of what might be entailed? It's hard to convince myself I
want to go through the effort, without understanding it better. I'm
pretty sure I have the skills. But I might not have the patience or
the equipment or tools.
And: is it always possible for the home hobby user to fully adjust a
cheaper mill? Are there some problems that just can't be fixed?
paul
=----------------------
paul fox, pgf@... (arlington, ma, where it's 41.4 degrees)
|
Yes.? Good YouTubes.? "Back in the day" we didn't really have those.
I ran across this one I liked which is fast paced and he has links in the description to more detailed ones for each mod.? This one covers a lot of the common upgrades I have seen discussed for a decade or two.? And he does a good job showing exactly what some of the problems look like, such as the tailstock not being quite parallel to the ways.
But as has been mentioned a couple of times, many mods or accessories won't necessarily matter based on how your particular lathe performs as-is and what you are doing with it.
For example, changing to tapered roller bearings in the headstock is decidedly an improvement and documented in a number of places.? But I suspect only a small percentage of these things get that mod with most people getting results that are "good enough", at least for them.??
And some things, like a carriage lock, can just be purchased from Little Machine Shop or maybe others if you would rather.? Here is a link to it...
One I had forgotten about is the apron gear cover.? This is perhaps something you really SHOULD do and most everybody's lathe benefits from it.? Chips get into the gears very easily in that location and the cover prevents that.? In the video, he makes a metal cover.? I think many just make it from clear plastic.? Little Machine Shop has a cover that mounts with pins.? (I would change this and mount it with screws).? Here it is...
Alternatively, here is an apron gear cover on eBay.? Various people make some of the more commonly needed things like this and sell them on eBay.? So, it is sometimes worth looking there.
To pile on yet another source I think is good, check out "arceurotrade".? They have some nice documentation including how to take these things apart and put them back together.? Here is their page of articles...
Here is the arceurtotrade specific article for changing the headstock bearings to better ones.? This has lots of photos and will give you an idea of the nature of making this sort of an upgrade.
For things you can just buy or make, you have the classic "make or buy" decision.? That is not the same for each person or situation.? Some will tend to criticize anyone that buys when they could make.? But you can make your own decisions based on cost, desire, skill, whatever.? Your machine.? Your rules.
Speaking of skill, you will notice that quite a range of experience exists on this list.? But they all started at zero at some point.
Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer
On Thursday, January 4, 2024 at 08:58:32 PM PST, Jon Rus via groups.io <byghtn5@...> wrote:
This guy is insane with the effort and
detail in this series of
Pimping the Mini lathe
????
<click it...
is
pretty good as well
^^^^^^??? <Click it....
Another interesting site
?
<click it...
Good Luck on your decision.
Be safe and wear safety glasses!
John
On 1/4/2024 11:16 AM, Paul Fox wrote:
People here and on other forums often talk about having had to clean,
fix, shim, adjust, tweak a new lathe in order to make it accurate and
useable. And that being willing to do so lets you start with a less
expensive mill, from HF or Vevor, say, rather than one from LMS or
Grizzly.
But I've yet to see an overall guide to what all of that work entails,
and how its done.
Does anyone have a pointer to a video, or a blog, or similar, that goes
through all of what might be entailed? It's hard to convince myself I
want to go through the effort, without understanding it better. I'm
pretty sure I have the skills. But I might not have the patience or
the equipment or tools.
And: is it always possible for the home hobby user to fully adjust a
cheaper mill? Are there some problems that just can't be fixed?
paul
=----------------------
paul fox, pgf@... (arlington, ma, where it's 41.4 degrees)
|
I found a big difference in YouTube.?
20 years ago they where on mark. Today full of wind good luck finding a good one.
Dave?
|
You guys are great!? That all made my morning coffee go by too fast!
Dave -- I agree, finding good YT videos is hard, but when you get a good one, it's worth a lot!? Many I'll come back to later, but some were worthwhile right away.
I don't know if she was recommended here or not, but I've been watching the tutorials from "blondihacks".? She has a good pace (I do speed the videos up a bit) and is very clear on why she does everything, and why what she's teaching is important.? So far I've just been watching the beginner tutorial series, but I'm sure they're all good.??
paul
|
On Fri, Jan 5, 2024 at 01:18 AM, Charles Kinzer wrote:
One I had forgotten about is the apron gear cover.? This is perhaps something you really SHOULD do and most everybody's lathe benefits from it.? Chips get into the gears very easily in that location and the cover prevents that.? In the video, he makes a metal cover.? I think many just make it from clear plastic.
While I made one of these for my lathe, I was already doing something that avoids the need for it, for way covers, and for leadscrew covers: I clean up after every machining session.? I have seen a number of photos and videos where chips, cut-off nubs, loose nuts, and all manner of garbage was in and around the lathe.? It's no wonder some people have problems.? It takes me less than 10 minutes to put the wrenches and instruments away, take the tools out of the tool post, and suck up the detritus with a shop vac.? I don't disassemble anything or take any covers off, I just pick up all the loose chips that I can see and run the nozzle over everything.? A sweep over the bench and the floor in the immediate area and it's ready to go for next time. Kurt Laughlin
|
Have you taken the skirt off and looked ??
george
On Friday, January 5, 2024 at 07:21:05 AM PST, KURT <kurt.laughlin@...> wrote:
On Fri, Jan 5, 2024 at 01:18 AM, Charles Kinzer wrote:
One I had forgotten about is the apron gear cover.? This is perhaps something you really SHOULD do and most everybody's lathe benefits from it.? Chips get into the gears very easily in that location and the cover prevents that.? In the video, he makes a metal cover.? I think many just make it from clear plastic.
While I made one of these for my lathe, I was already doing something that avoids the need for it, for way covers, and for leadscrew covers: I clean up after every machining session.? I have seen a number of photos and videos where chips, cut-off nubs, loose nuts, and all manner of garbage was in and around the lathe.? It's no wonder some people have problems.? It takes me less than 10 minutes to put the wrenches and instruments away, take the tools out of the tool post, and suck up the detritus with a shop vac.? I don't disassemble anything or take any covers off, I just pick up all the loose chips that I can see and run the nozzle over everything.? A sweep over the bench and the floor in the immediate area and it's ready to go for next time. Kurt Laughlin
|
davesmith1800