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A vintage Dayton 4 x 6 saw.
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All blade guides removed.
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The blade makes an angle of almost 45 degrees with the table!
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For the photo, I've attached a magnet to the blade and positioned a square on the table, for emphasis.
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With no blade guides that is it's normal position
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Jack,
I may be 100% WRONG, but then again, maybe NOT?
Our 4X6 band saw 's rollers are NEEDED to orient (rotate) the
blade 90? (about) so the blade is aligned front to back.
Without the rollers in place the blade would be rotated about like
yours.
If you haven't try reinstalling the top & bottom rollers.
GOOD luck, be WELL & be SAFE!?
Mrs. R A
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On 9/28/2024 1:40 PM,
Jack Dinan wrote:
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A vintage Dayton 4 x 6 saw.
?
All blade guides removed.
?
The blade makes an angle of almost 45 degrees
with the table!
?
For the photo, I've attached a magnet to the
blade and positioned a square on the table, for emphasis.
?
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On 9/28/2024 11:40 AM, Jack Dinan wrote: The blade makes an angle of almost 45 degrees with the table! Not clear what you are trying to show. Looks quite normal to me. The moving head of the standard 4X6 saw is on a pivot at 45 degrees to the base. Has to be at that angle to allow for the blade to contact the cutting material long before the backside of the moving head does. If the head were square to the base, the head would come down and contact the cutting material and you wouldn't get anywhere. The purpose of the 'blade guides' is to torque or twist the blade so that the short working section is now square to the base table and to your cutting stock. The guides may have fine adjustment to perfect the cut angle to square. If you remove the guides you completely defeat the design. -- Patrick Hayes Fremont CA
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On Sat, Sep 28, 2024 at 04:36 PM, Robin wrote:
I may be 100% WRONG, but then again, maybe NOT?
Our 4X6 band saw 's rollers are NEEDED to orient (rotate) the blade 90? (about) so the blade is aligned front to back.
Without the rollers in place the blade would be rotated about like yours.
Without the blade guides is a very good way to start setting up your saw. 1) confirm that blade has good tension and tracks well, The blade should kiss the back ledge on the wheels and both wheels. A little difference is okay but it should be close to the same (one wheel can have a slight gap) 2) turn the square so it is against the fixed jaw with the rule on the square parallel to the blade.? 3) If the rule is not parallel with the rule on the square move the fixed jaw to make it so.? 4) Now reinstall the blade guides. Clamp a small 6 inch rule to the bade to assist in make it vertical.? 5) Make test cuts and adjust blade guide laterally or twisting until the blade cuts square in both directions.? Note: scribe a line in on the base so that you will know where to position the fixed jaw. This line will be parallel with the pivot pin in yours saw (for the head) and that is always the best starting point.? Mark
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A? Dayton! They were the originator of the 4x6 in 1966 from Dayton Ohio - worth saving.
4x6's had a slightly lower angle of the sawframe to base, around 40deg on one's I've measured, where the later 5x6's were 45deg for more depth of cut at the expense of throat width.
Follow Mark's advice to get it cutting square.
Nice to see we haven't forgotten each other. A friend in need is a friend indeed - jv
A vintage Dayton 4 x 6 saw.
?
All blade guides removed.
?
The blade makes an angle of almost 45 degrees with the table!
?
For the photo, I've attached a magnet to the blade and positioned a square on the table, for emphasis.
?
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What “Mark’s Instructions”? Do you have a link? Hopefully something with the dots very close together!
Thanks in Advance! Chuck Peterson?
On Sat, Sep 28, 2024 at 5:48?PM John Vreede via <vreededesign= [email protected]> wrote: A? Dayton! They were the originator of the 4x6 in 1966 from Dayton Ohio - worth saving.
4x6's had a slightly lower angle of the sawframe to base, around 40deg on one's I've measured, where the later 5x6's were 45deg for more depth of cut at the expense of throat width.
Follow Mark's advice to get it cutting square.
Nice to see we haven't forgotten each other. A friend in need is a friend indeed - jv
A vintage Dayton 4 x 6 saw.
?
All blade guides removed.
?
The blade makes an angle of almost 45 degrees with the table!
?
For the photo, I've attached a magnet to the blade and positioned a square on the table, for emphasis.
?
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On Sat, Sep 28, 2024 at 08:01 PM, Chuck Peterson wrote:
What “Mark’s Instructions”? Do you have a link? Hopefully something with the dots very close together!
Thats me. I replied to somebody in this conversation, I should have replied to your post.? <cut/past> Without the blade guides is a very good way to start setting up your saw.1) confirm that blade has good tension and tracks well, The blade should kiss the back ledge on the wheels and both wheels. A little difference is okay but it should be close to the same (one wheel can have a slight gap)2) turn the square so it is against the fixed jaw with the rule on the square parallel to the blade.?3) If the rule is not parallel with the rule on the square move the fixed jaw to make it so.?4) Now reinstall the blade guides. Clamp a small 6 inch rule to the bade to assist in make it vertical.?5) Make test cuts and adjust blade guide laterally or twisting until the blade cuts square in both directions.?Note: scribe a line in on the base so that you will know where to position the fixed jaw. This line will be parallel with the pivot pin in yours saw (for the head) and that is always the best starting point.?MarkPS? Thanks John
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With the twist imposed by the blade guide supports removed, you get a pretty serviceable little vertical saw.
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I really like the dedicated vertical idea. Could you post more pics of your mounting base and stand please. Thanks.?
Noel?
With the twist imposed by the blade guide supports removed, you get a pretty serviceable little vertical saw.
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On Sun, Sep 29, 2024 at 09:59 AM, Noel Hinz wrote:
I really like the dedicated vertical idea. Could you post more pics of your mounting base and stand please. Thanks.?
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I had some left over 3x3 tubing and made this table, 2x2 would work just as well. I like it better because i can go from horizontal to vertical in about 5 seconds. It clamps in the vise. Your saw may have different dimensions but this gives you the basic idea.?
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Thanks for your idea as well. I found a deal on a 4x6 with the idea of making a dedicated vertical metal cutting band saw. I have a larger Kalamazoo for horizontal cut off.? Noel
On Sun, Sep 29, 2024 at 09:59 AM, Noel Hinz wrote:
I really like the dedicated vertical idea. Could you post more pics of your mounting base and stand please. Thanks.?
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I had some left over 3x3 tubing and made this table, 2x2 would work just as well. I like it better because i can go from horizontal to vertical in about 5 seconds. It clamps in the vise. Your saw may have different dimensions but this gives you the basic idea.?
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I’m the original poster with the Dayton saw who, thanks to your responses, now understands that vertical alignment is set by twisting the bearing guide seats.?
My question now is, if we are going to twist those guide seats to bring the blade perpendicular to the vise, why do we bother to first set the two side guide bearings so perfectly. As soon as we twist the seat, isn’t the blade going to ride on one of those bearings?
Hoping to learn how to set up my Dayton.
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On Sep 29, 2024, at 9:23 PM, Noel Hinz < n.h.hinz@...> wrote:
Thanks! Your mounting plate is very similar to what I had thought about doing. Very nice work. Noel <20210729_120534.jpg><20210731_154133.jpg>
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On Sun, Sep 29, 2024 at 08:43 PM, Jack Dinan wrote:
My question now is, if we are going to twist those guide seats to bring the blade perpendicular to the vise, why do we bother to first set the two side guide bearings so perfectly.
As soon as we twist the seat, isn’t the blade going to ride on one of those bearings?
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Hoping to learn how to set up my Dayton.
Maybe I'm not fully understanding what you are asking but, the two side bearing need to be set with a gap about the thickness of the blade. When rotated the force on the bearings should be close to the same on both bearings. Ideally this rotation should be along the center axis of the blade so as not to deflect in any direction. This is why it is best to set the blade square to the back jaw with the blade guides removed. If, after installing the guides the saw does not cut square to the back jaw you know that the guides are deflecting the blade and where to correct. Honestly, the blade guides are not designed well but to be fair, I have yet to see any that are very made well.? Ideally you should be able to set the guide position on the blade without twisting and then twist along the axis of the blade without deflection. I tried to make a guide to do this. It is doable but not easy.
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Hi Jack The OEM side guide roller clearance?setting is zero to 1thou over the blade thickness (which is very closely controlled to 25thou in all good blades) so 25-26 thou between the rollers? The blade cuts in the direction its back (the bit behind the teeth) is pointing, so any change in the angle of the blade back affects vertical squareness of cut.? When you twist the blade, the blade back slants across the gap between the 2 rollers and the slant changes appreciably with any change in the gap and therefore the blade squareness to the vice table changes too, and along with it the vertical cut squareness.
The blade does actually touch both bearings in each guide, it touches the roller inside the loop of the blade on its edge closest to the teeth of the blade, and the outside roller touches near the back edge of the blade (that's how it twists the blade). Old timers used to set the side guide rollers about 7thou?+ blade thickness apart to prolong the rollers life.?Even set at the OEM 0-1thou clearance, the rollers are not loaded anywhere near their load limit, but when swarf passes through the gap between the roller and the blade, it shock loads the bearings. At 1 thou blade to roller clearance the bearings are destroyed fairly quickly, while at 7 thou it didn't do much damage and the bearings lasted a lot longer.?? Fact is this was only really?a problem if you used liquid cutting lube, which makes the swarf stick to the side of the blade. Steel swarf cut dry doesn't?normally stick to the blade but occasionally a lump goes through which you hear as a bang.?Alumnium swarf is soft enough to squish but builds up quickly on the blade and rollers, robbing clearance until the rollers really do load up and fail. If top and bottom guides are not both the same then the horizontal cut blade direction also changes, and bang goes your horizontal cut squareness).?? The blade is better supported with closer guide roller settings?and won't wander as much,if you care about squareness, then? use the OEM setting.? If squareness of cut is not that important to you, then more clearance will make the bearings last longer.?? Anyway take the side guide roller clearance as a 'setting' (always do it the same, whatever you do), don't think of it as an 'adjustment'. You'll learn a lot more from John Piitkins early?doc? 'Blade Tracking and Adjustment for 4x6 Metal Cutting Bandsaws'.? It's not all correct but it's waaay better than OEM manuals. You can find it in the Files section (from the menu?on LHS of the 4x6 Bandsaw site home page) about 2/3 of the way down the first page.? Confusingly, in the list it's called 'Basic Blade Adjustment and Tracking -? rev-1.pdf' and it looks like the author is Walter Townsend (Walter transferred all the files from our old Yahoo site to 开云体育 - Thank you Walter! Most of those under his name were written by other people) Rgds - jv
I’m the original poster with the Dayton saw who, thanks to your responses, now understands that vertical alignment is set by twisting the bearing guide seats.?
My question now is, if we are going to twist those guide seats to bring the blade perpendicular to the vise, why do we bother to first set the two side guide bearings so perfectly. As soon as we twist the seat, isn’t the blade going to ride on one of those bearings?
Hoping to learn how to set up my Dayton. On Sep 29, 2024, at 9:23 PM, Noel Hinz < n.h.hinz@...> wrote:
Thanks! Your mounting plate is very similar to what I had thought about doing. Very nice work. Noel <20210729_120534.jpg><20210731_154133.jpg>
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Many many thanks for all this. I have my saw apart on the bench at the moment. I’ll study these responses, reassemble the parts, and hopefully post again when I have a better understanding of how these saws work.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hi Jack The OEM side guide roller clearance?setting is zero to 1thou over the blade thickness (which is very closely controlled to 25thou in all good blades) so 25-26 thou between the rollers? The blade cuts in the direction its back (the bit behind the teeth) is pointing, so any change in the angle of the blade back affects vertical squareness of cut.? When you twist the blade, the blade back slants across the gap between the 2 rollers and the slant changes appreciably with any change in the gap and therefore the blade squareness to the vice table changes too, and along with it the vertical cut squareness.
The blade does actually touch both bearings in each guide, it touches the roller inside the loop of the blade on its edge closest to the teeth of the blade, and the outside roller touches near the back edge of the blade (that's how it twists the blade). Old timers used to set the side guide rollers about 7thou?+ blade thickness apart to prolong the rollers life.?Even set at the OEM 0-1thou clearance, the rollers are not loaded anywhere near their load limit, but when swarf passes through the gap between the roller and the blade, it shock loads the bearings. At 1 thou blade to roller clearance the bearings are destroyed fairly quickly, while at 7 thou it didn't do much damage and the bearings lasted a lot longer.?? Fact is this was only really?a problem if you used liquid cutting lube, which makes the swarf stick to the side of the blade. Steel swarf cut dry doesn't?normally stick to the blade but occasionally a lump goes through which you hear as a bang.?Alumnium swarf is soft enough to squish but builds up quickly on the blade and rollers, robbing clearance until the rollers really do load up and fail. If top and bottom guides are not both the same then the horizontal cut blade direction also changes, and bang goes your horizontal cut squareness).?? The blade is better supported with closer guide roller settings?and won't wander as much,if you care about squareness, then? use the OEM setting.? If squareness of cut is not that important to you, then more clearance will make the bearings last longer.?? Anyway take the side guide roller clearance as a 'setting' (always do it the same, whatever you do), don't think of it as an 'adjustment'. You'll learn a lot more from John Piitkins early?doc? 'Blade Tracking and Adjustment for 4x6 Metal Cutting Bandsaws'.? It's not all correct but it's waaay better than OEM manuals. You can find it in the Files section (from the menu?on LHS of the 4x6 Bandsaw site home page) about 2/3 of the way down the first page.? Confusingly, in the list it's called 'Basic Blade Adjustment and Tracking -? rev-1.pdf' and it looks like the author is Walter Townsend (Walter transferred all the files from our old Yahoo site to??- Thank you Walter! Most of those under his name were written by other people) Rgds - jv I’m the original poster with the Dayton saw who, thanks to your responses, now understands that vertical alignment is set by twisting the bearing guide seats.?
My question now is, if we are going to twist those guide seats to bring the blade perpendicular to the vise, why do we bother to first set the two side guide bearings so perfectly. As soon as we twist the seat, isn’t the blade going to ride on one of those bearings?
Hoping to learn how to set up my Dayton. On Sep 29, 2024, at 9:23 PM, Noel Hinz < n.h.hinz@...> wrote:
Thanks! Your mounting plate is very similar to what I had thought about doing. Very nice work. Noel <20210729_120534.jpg><20210731_154133.jpg>
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"The blade is better supported with closer guide roller settings and won't wander as much, if you care about squareness, then ?use the OEM setting. ?If squareness of cut is not that important to you, then more clearance will make the bearings last longer."
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And in the context of us hobby users, "longer bearing life" means something like lasting until the year 2150.? A lesser clearance will still let the bearings outlive you.?
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Regarding set-up/alignment, I'm not saying it was the procedure mentioned above, but I followed one I got off some machining group and it took my saw from cutting less than 0.005 in/in squareness to about 0.040 in/in.? It was complicated, very involved, and counter-productive.? The process is inherently somewhat simple as there aren't a lot of places where you can make adjustments.? The bigger problem I found was that the fit of the parts wasn't very good. The most valuable thing I did was to square up and shim the moving surfaces on the guides to make sure that adjustment and tightening screws didn't move things around.? Then I used the procedure out of the saw manual.? It's back to cutting square, better than before.
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Kurt Laughlin
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On Tue, Oct 1, 2024 at 09:32 AM, KURT wrote:
And in the context of us hobby users, "longer bearing life" means something like lasting until the year 2150.? A lesser clearance will still let the bearings outlive you.?
Well, almost. I had a blade guide bearing fail on my Jet 5x7 last summer, after 14 years of hobby use. I replaced all six and darn near broke my budget! (snicker)? PGN Bearings # 6000-2RS $0.93 each in box of 10. The same bearings are used as blade guide bearings in my bandsaw mill. They don't last so long in the sawmill so I buy them in boxes of 10.
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?- Raymond
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Mark
John Vreede
Chuck Peterson
@MrWhoopee