|
Well, I THINK I found what I needed on McMaster Carr. We'll see once they show up. Thanks Bill!! |
Oil-Embedded Thrust Bearing, 5/8" Inside Diameter, 1-1/2" OD, 1/8" Thickness
|
?
Shoot. No such thing as TMI as far as I'm concerned! :) I enjoy hearing of the experiences of others. Thanks!!! Merry Christmas!!! :) Darren
?
[Attachment(s) from Bill Armstrong included below]
Hi Daren,
For a 5/8” shaft, about .030” over on the ID of the thrust-washer would be a normal design criteria. In the grand scheme of things, .060” oversize wouldn’t matter on any low RPM
designs like a band saw. You may be seeing some wear on the old one. Myself, I’d shoot for the .030”, and I’d think ‘store bought’ thrust bearings for a 5/8” shaft would mostly be just that. Again….the design would be very forgiving in low RPM designs.
?
660, or 932 (same thing) is the most common bearing grade bronze. 841, or Oilite, is sintered bronze, making it porous so as to hold oil.
Both are used in a lot of power tools….among many other things. For a band saw, I’d go with 660 (932), unless there was some life problem. 660 has a bit better yield strength
than 841.
?
Sometimes you have to get into the heavy duty, due to clearance restrictions, or, for whatever reason(s), you have early failures.
I used to design & make a lot of bearings with 954 (aluminum bronze) which is harder and tougher than 660.
Also designed & made bearings from 863 (manganese bronze) which is stronger yet, but less pleasant to work with. ?
Used both the above often, to improve bearing life, and still make it a direct replacement to the OEM 660 part. ?(attached example)
?
There….TMI….sorry about that…..
?
Merry Christmas!
Bill
?
?
?
Bill,
Thanks for the information and confirmation. I must have been having a bad day. You're spot on about the ID. Once I stepped away from the washer and measured the shaft, the OD of the shaft is .625", thus the ID of the washer needs to be
at least that..... DUH! Using a different set of calipers, I can confirm, the "good" washer's ID is .688. Which causes me to ask, is the difference between shaft OD and thrust washer ID wear on the thrust, or intentional clearance? (I am told I "pick nits",
feel free to advise me if I am doing so here.)
Thanks for the link and transfer of knowledge on the 660 vs 841. I've never messed with thrust washers before so this is all a great education. :)
Thanks and Merry Christmas!
---In 4x6bandsaw@..., wrote :
Looking at the pic Darren, they look a bit larger on the ID than .4” (10mm)
Check that dim, and take a look at McMaster Car & see if anything they have will work.
?
Also looking at the pic, they appear to be 841 by their color.
841 is synonymous with Oilite, or oil impregnated bronze.
That’s just a guess….pics can be deceiving depending on the light.
Since they are in an oiled gearbox, 841 seems a bit redundant, and I would think 660 would work fine.
?
Bill
?
?
?
?
[Attachment(s) from Darren McCarley included below]
Need a bit of help finding some thrust washers. At least I think they are thrust washers. I'm looking for 2 non-ferrous washers that measure 38mm od, 10mm id, and 3mm thick. (1.5"od, .4" id, .1" thick). These go in the
gear box. One between the drive sprocket and case and the other between the final bearing and worm gear. (This one was completely trashed, as was the roller bearing.) Here's a couple of pictures of what I'm needing. These don't look to be brass. Bronze maybe??
?
Well, the new cam followers and blade back bearing came in. The cam followers were maybe .01 bigger in diameter but that was an easy fix w/ some fine filing. Thanks for the suggestions!! Next up is replacing all 7 roller
bearings, a couple of seals, a few thrust bearings, finish cleaning up the main body, prime, paint, and reassemble. This thing is FINALLY coming?together. :) I'll post pics and a bit of a write up once completed. While I doubt anyone else needs the part numbers,
I'll post the part numbers I've used. Heck, I might need them later. :)
You guys continue to rock! Thanks for the help, inspiration, and support!!
?
?
Yes, it came through.? I think I will try the version made from aluminum and blade pieces, it seems that would work well.
?
?
?
?
Just reloaded the pdf file, let me know if it works this time - jv
|
You’re welcome Darren!
Happy to help!
Always nice when ‘off the shelf’ parts will work. Not uncommon with old US iron.
30 thou over nominal on the ID sounds perfect!
(When off the shelf doesn’t apply, owning? lathe & a mill are extremely handy) ;)
Look forward to hearing your progress! Good ol’ America iron!
?
HO HO HO!
Bill
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: 4x6bandsaw@... [mailto:4x6bandsaw@...]
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2018 12:24 PM
To: 4x6bandsaw@...
Subject: Re: [4x6bandsaw] Re: Bainbridge blade guides
?
?
Well, I THINK I found what I needed on McMaster Carr. We'll see once they show up.
Thanks Bill!!
|
|
Oil-Embedded Thrust Bearing, 5/8" Inside Diameter, 1-1/2" OD, 1/8" Thickness
|
?
?
Shoot. No such thing as TMI as far as I'm concerned! :) I enjoy hearing of the experiences of others. Thanks!!!
?
?
[Attachment(s) from Bill Armstrong included below]
Hi Daren,
For a 5/8” shaft, about .030” over on the ID of the thrust-washer would be a normal design criteria. In the grand scheme of things, .060” oversize wouldn’t matter on any low RPM designs like a band saw. You may be seeing some wear
on the old one. Myself, I’d shoot for the .030”, and I’d think ‘store bought’ thrust bearings for a 5/8” shaft would mostly be just that. Again….the design would be very forgiving in low RPM designs.
?
660, or 932 (same thing) is the most common bearing grade bronze. 841, or Oilite, is sintered bronze, making it porous so as to hold oil.
Both are used in a lot of power tools….among many other things. For a band saw, I’d go with 660 (932), unless there was some life problem. 660 has a bit better yield strength than 841.
?
Sometimes you have to get into the heavy duty, due to clearance restrictions, or, for whatever reason(s), you have early failures.
I used to design & make a lot of bearings with 954 (aluminum bronze) which is harder and tougher than 660.
Also designed & made bearings from 863 (manganese bronze) which is stronger yet, but less pleasant to work with. ?
Used both the above often, to improve bearing life, and still make it a direct replacement to the OEM 660 part. ?(attached example)
?
There…..TMI….sorry about that…..
?
Merry Christmas!
Bill
?
?
?
Bill,
Thanks for the information and confirmation. I must have been having a bad day. You're spot on about the ID. Once I stepped away from the washer and measured the shaft, the OD of the shaft is .625", thus the ID of the washer needs to be at least that..... DUH!
Using a different set of calipers, I can confirm, the "good" washer's ID is .688. Which causes me to ask, is the difference between shaft OD and thrust washer ID wear on the thrust, or intentional clearance? (I am told I "pick nits", feel free to advise me
if I am doing so here.)
Thanks for the link and transfer of knowledge on the 660 vs 841. I've never messed with thrust washers before so this is all a great education. :)
Thanks and Merry Christmas!
---In 4x6bandsaw@..., <bill_1955@...> wrote :
Looking at the pic Darren, they look a bit larger on the ID than .4” (10mm)
Check that dim, and take a look at McMaster Car & see if anything they have will work.
?
Also looking at the pic, they appear to be 841 by their color.
841 is synonymous with Oilite, or oil impregnated bronze.
That’s just a guess….pics can be deceiving depending on the light.
Since they are in an oiled gearbox, 841 seems a bit redundant, and I would think 660 would work fine.
?
Bill
?
?
?
?
[Attachment(s) from Darren McCarley included below]
Need a bit of help finding some thrust washers. At least I think they are thrust washers. I'm looking for 2 non-ferrous washers that measure 38mm od, 10mm id, and 3mm thick. (1.5"od, .4" id, .1" thick). These go in the gear box. One between the drive sprocket
and case and the other between the final bearing and worm gear. (This one was completely trashed, as was the roller bearing.) Here's a couple of pictures of what I'm needing. These don't look to be brass. Bronze maybe??
?
Well, the new cam followers and blade back bearing came in. The cam followers were maybe .01 bigger in diameter but that was an easy fix w/ some fine filing. Thanks for the suggestions!! Next up is replacing all 7 roller bearings, a couple of seals, a few thrust
bearings, finish cleaning up the main body, prime, paint, and reassemble. This thing is FINALLY coming?together. :) I'll post pics and a bit of a write up once completed. While I doubt anyone else needs the part numbers, I'll post the part numbers I've used.
Heck, I might need them later. :)
You guys continue to rock! Thanks for the help, inspiration, and support!!
?
?
Yes, it came through.? I think I will try the version made from aluminum and blade pieces, it seems that would work well.
?
?
?
?
Just reloaded the pdf file, let me know if it works this time - jv
|
Sorry I'm late on this conversation but I've been travelling and only just got my phone to where it can reply to a thread.
I'm at a loss to see why your gearbox would have thrust bearings in those positions Darren. when there's no way for any thrust to be resolved there.
I understand that's what you found when disassembling it but why would they be there?
More likely they are oil slingers to stop oil leaking out, though how they might work is beyond me too.
A 4x6 has lip-seals in those positions, and they do stop oil leaking from the gearbox. The 2RS seals on bearings are not designed to seal against oil, just stop ingress of swarf or leakage of internal bearing grease.
I suspect your Bainbridge gearbox will also leak unless you have lip-seals rather than these washers. They will be available in the same size as the bearing ID x OD x~0.25" thick - jv
|
JV, I hope your travels went smoothly and we're productive/enjoyable. There are VERY few images of this type of saw on the internet. Fewer of the gear box. However, I did find one that showed at least 1 washer used on the worm hear shaft. I BELEIEVE these are not intended as thrust washers, per se. Instead, I believe they are more like spacers. The replacements are scheduled to arrive today. :) Once I start reassembling the saw I post pictures and show what I mean.? Thanks Darren
?
Sorry I'm late on this conversation but I've been travelling and only just got my phone to where it can reply to a thread.
I'm at a loss to see why your gearbox would have thrust bearings in those positions Darren. when there's no way for any thrust to be resolved there.
I understand that's what you found when disassembling it but why would they be there?
More likely they are oil slingers to stop oil leaking out, though how they might work is beyond me too.
A 4x6 has lip-seals in those positions, and they do stop oil leaking from the gearbox. The 2RS seals on bearings are not designed to seal against oil, just stop ingress of swarf or leakage of internal bearing grease.
I suspect your Bainbridge gearbox will also leak unless you have lip-seals rather than these washers. They will be available in the same size as the bearing ID x OD x~0.25" thick - jv
|
I know that some of the old DoAll band saws used washers in the gear boxes. Washers, thrust washers, spacers, name ‘em what you like….they had ‘em. I don’t remember if they were
bronze or steel….been a while.
?
Bill
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: 4x6bandsaw@... [mailto:4x6bandsaw@...]
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 12:39 PM
To: 4x6bandsaw@...
Subject: Re: [4x6bandsaw] Re: Bainbridge blade guides
?
?
I hope your travels went smoothly and we're productive/enjoyable. There are VERY few images of this type of saw on the internet. Fewer of the gear box. However, I did find one that showed at least 1 washer used on the worm hear shaft. I
BELEIEVE these are not intended as thrust washers, per se. Instead, I believe they are more like spacers. The replacements are scheduled to arrive today. :) Once I start reassembling the saw I post pictures and show what I mean.?
?
?
Sorry I'm late on this conversation but I've been travelling and only just got my phone to where it can reply to a thread.
I'm at a loss to see why your gearbox would have thrust bearings in those positions Darren. when there's no way for any thrust to be resolved there.
I understand that's what you found when disassembling it but why would they be there?
More likely they are oil slingers to stop oil leaking out, though how they might work is beyond me too.
A 4x6 has lip-seals in those positions, and they do stop oil leaking from the gearbox. The 2RS seals on bearings are not designed to seal against oil, just stop ingress of swarf or leakage of internal bearing grease.
I suspect your Bainbridge gearbox will also leak unless you have lip-seals rather than these washers. They will be available in the same size as the bearing ID x OD x~0.25" thick - jv
|
Well, the thrust bearings came in and they are identical, as near as I can tell. I'm taking all of next week off and plan to spend a lot of that time in the garage. If the weather cooperates, I'll be painting and start the reassembling process.
Quick question. Bearing installation. Lubricate the aluminum case for installation or leave it dry? I've only installed bearings/races in engines and we used plenty of oil. I assume the same applies? Would hate to have a bearing cut into the aluminum and "cut" a burr. (Will be using the "socket as a bearing installer" method.) Will be using mobil shc 634 as gear box fluid and intended to use it as an install lube as well.
Thanks!
Darren
|
Hey Darren,
?
I would use Lubriplate 105 to assemble. Any auto parts store has it. It’s what is used to assemble engines. Gives you good lubrication before the oil gets into everything it needs
to, and will hang in there if you get side tracked and leave things set for a day or month.
The Lubriplate will be absorbed with the oil after you use the saw a bit, with no detrimental effects. It’s not a heavy grease, like #2 or even #1.
I use it for transmissions, and other gearboxes as well, besides just engines, and have for years.
?
Bill
?
?
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: 4x6bandsaw@... [mailto:4x6bandsaw@...]
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 6:03 PM
To: 4x6bandsaw@...
Subject: RE: [4x6bandsaw] Re: Bainbridge blade guides
?
?
Well, the thrust bearings came in and they are identical, as near as I can tell. I'm taking all of next week off and plan to spend a lot of that time in the garage. If the weather cooperates, I'll be painting and start the reassembling process.
Quick question. Bearing installation. Lubricate the aluminum case for installation or leave it dry? I've only installed bearings/races in engines and we used plenty of oil. I assume the same applies? Would hate to have a bearing cut into the aluminum and "cut"
a burr. (Will be using the "socket as a bearing installer" method.) Will be using mobil shc 634 as gear box fluid and intended to use it as an install lube as well.
Thanks!
Darren
|
Awesome. Thanks Bill! Darren
?
Hey Darren,
?
I would use Lubriplate 105 to assemble. Any auto parts store has it. It’s what is used to assemble engines. Gives you good lubrication before the oil gets into everything it needs
to, and will hang in there if you get side tracked and leave things set for a day or month.
The Lubriplate will be absorbed with the oil after you use the saw a bit, with no detrimental effects. It’s not a heavy grease, like #2 or even #1.
I use it for transmissions, and other gearboxes as well, besides just engines, and have for years.
?
Bill
?
?
?
?
?
Well, the thrust bearings came in and they are identical, as near as I can tell. I'm taking all of next week off and plan to spend a lot of that time in the garage. If the weather cooperates, I'll be painting and start the reassembling process.
Quick question. Bearing installation. Lubricate the aluminum case for installation or leave it dry? I've only installed bearings/races in engines and we used plenty of oil. I assume the same applies? Would hate to have a bearing cut into the aluminum and "cut"
a burr. (Will be using the "socket as a bearing installer" method.) Will be using mobil shc 634 as gear box fluid and intended to use it as an install lube as well.
Thanks!
Darren
|
Posted by: darren.mccarley@... darren.mccarley@...
Date: Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:02 pm ((PST))
Well, the thrust bearings came in and they are identical, as near as I can tell. I'm taking all of next week off and plan to spend a lot of that time in the garage. If the weather cooperates, I'll be painting and start the reassembling process.
Quick question. Bearing installation. Lubricate the aluminum case for installation or leave it dry? I've only installed bearings/races in engines and we used plenty of oil. I assume the same applies? Would hate to have a bearing cut into the aluminum and "cut" a burr. (Will be using the "socket as a bearing installer" method.) Will be using mobil shc 634 as gear box fluid and intended to use it as an install lube as well. If the housing is aluminum, you can warm it with a heat gun. The thermal expansion will reduce the pressure required. Lubricate the bore and the bearing with assembly grease (Lubriplate 105) or oil. Ken :-)
|
Heat gun plus bearings in the freezer for an hour or 2 - jv
|
Been thinking Darren and with the mass of aluminium in your gearbox casting you'd be better off with a propane torch than a heat gun. It should be sizzling hot when you spit on it. That plus freezing the earrings and they'll almost slide in - jv
|
Well JV, you got a heck of a chuckle out of me. Thanks! I like that thermometer. This approach implies paint after the bearing installation. That's opposite of my current approach. I have to ask, why heat/shrink over greased pig? :) Thanks Darren
?
Been thinking Darren and with the mass of aluminium in your gearbox casting you'd be better off with a propane torch than a heat gun. It should be sizzling hot when you spit on it. That plus freezing the earrings and they'll almost slide in - jv
|
There's the whole science of reliability engineering behind it. Contrary to popular belief, properly installed and lubed rolling element bearing don't wear out, they fail randomly. The biggest cause of failure in bearings in general is improper installation, with being dinged from hitting them into place and skewed alignment the main culprits. That's why you never replace bearings as 'preventative maintenance'. So anything you can do to ease installation is worth doing. The main ones are heating the outside/cooling the inside so less force required to get it in place, along with jigs to push or pull them in squarely and applying the pressure to the correct side of the bearing (i.e. never push on the inner to get the outer to seat) - jv
|
Sorry Darren, I didn't see the other part of your question, sizzling hot is still only 200-300F? (100-150C) and most paints will stand that if you heat up carefully i.e. move the torch round constantly - jv
|
JV, That makes sense to me. Any issues with following both procedures? Temp and lube? Thanks Darren
?
There's the whole science of reliability engineering behind it. Contrary to popular belief, properly installed and lubed rolling element bearing don't wear out, they fail randomly. The biggest cause of failure in bearings in general is improper installation, with being dinged from hitting them into place and skewed alignment the main culprits. That's why you never replace bearings as 'preventative maintenance'. So anything you can do to ease installation is worth doing. The main ones are heating the outside/cooling the inside so less force required to get it in place, along with jigs to push or pull them in squarely and applying the pressure to the correct side of the bearing (i.e. never push on the inner to get the outer to seat) - jv
|
?
JV,
That makes sense to me. Any issues with
following both procedures? Temp and lube?
Thanks
Darren
? I saw where JV said the casting is aluminum . Mine is cast iron -
which is still worth heating it up a bit though it won't expand as
much as the aluminum . I have had very good luck installing bearings
with a piece of threaded rod or a long enough bolt and some properly
sized washers . Sometimes I'll machine a slug that is a slip fit in
the bore (with a hole in the center for the rod) to keep the bearing
square with the bore . But I don't know what tooling you have
available ...
?--
? Snag
?
There's the whole science of reliability
engineering behind it.. Contrary to popular
belief, properly installed and lubed rolling
element bearing don't wear out, they fail
randomly.
The biggest cause of failure in bearings in
general is improper installation, with being
dinged from hitting them into place and skewed
alignment the main culprits. That's why you
never replace bearings as 'preventative
maintenance'.
So anything you can do to ease installation
is worth doing. The main ones are heating the
outside/cooling the inside so less force
required to get it in place, along with jigs
to push or pull them in squarely and applying
the pressure to the correct side of the
bearing (i.e. never push on the inner to get
the outer to seat) - jv
|
No problem, each helps the other. In fact making things so hot that it interferes with you ability to align things is counterproductive too. Just do what you feel comfortable with. - jv
|
I would think that the press in a band saw is quite light, and if any heat is required, it will be minimal if lube is used for assembly. I am speaking from experience.
?
Also, I will agree that a lot of bearing failures are the direct result of poor or incorrect installation. No doubt about that, and I have seen it often.
?
However, they do fail because they wear out. I have seen many, and in applications where their life was predictable, and either they were changed at specific operating hours,
those hours being formulated on past failures, or the particular bearing(s) used, were changed to an different model for the application. I have worked plenty with bearing nerds from Timken, SKF, and others to get that done.
Bearing life is a matter of loads, speeds, environment, housing/shaft fits, and lubrication, as well as installation procedures.
A lot of failures that I saw, were the direct result of engineers missing one of the above, or a piece of equipment was being used in a manner for which it was not actually designed.
?
Bill
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: 4x6bandsaw@... [mailto:4x6bandsaw@...]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 9:02 AM
To: 4x6bandsaw@...
Subject: Re: [4x6bandsaw] Re: Bainbridge blade guides
?
?
No problem, each helps the other. In fact making things so hot that it interferes with you ability to align things is counterproductive too. Just do what you feel comfortable with. - jv
|
Great idea. However, I don't have a lathe, yet. That's coming in Q1 of 2019. Also, as soon as I sent the last question, I realized the error in my thoughts. If the aluminum is hot enough to sizzle spit, it'll probably burn off the grease. Or at least break it down past the point of usefulness. Looks like it'll be one or the other. Bearings and seals are in the freezer. :) Now I just need to play with some scrap aluminum and my little MAPP torch to be sure I don't melt the casing... Weather is too cold to paint anyway. :) Thanks Darren
?
?
JV,
That makes sense to me. Any issues with
following both procedures? Temp and lube?
Thanks
Darren
? I saw where JV said the casting is aluminum . Mine is cast iron -
which is still worth heating it up a bit though it won't expand as
much as the aluminum . I have had very good luck installing bearings
with a piece of threaded rod or a long enough bolt and some properly
sized washers . Sometimes I'll machine a slug that is a slip fit in
the bore (with a hole in the center for the rod) to keep the bearing
square with the bore . But I don't know what tooling you have
available ...
?--
? Snag
?
There's the whole science of reliability
engineering behind it.. Contrary to popular
belief, properly installed and lubed rolling
element bearing don't wear out, they fail
randomly.
The biggest cause of failure in bearings in
general is improper installation, with being
dinged from hitting them into place and skewed
alignment the main culprits. That's why you
never replace bearings as 'preventative
maintenance'.
So anything you can do to ease installation
is worth doing. The main ones are heating the
outside/cooling the inside so less force
required to get it in place, along with jigs
to push or pull them in squarely and applying
the pressure to the correct side of the
bearing (i.e. never push on the inner to get
the outer to seat) - jv
|
Here’s a question…..how much effort did it take to remove the old bearings? New ones should install with similar force, and arguably less, since you cleaned up the housing., the
bearings are new & clean, and there’s no paint on anything. ?
You don’t need so much heat, as to worry about melting something. That is extreme.
If you use some lube to the bore of the housing, even if you heat it, it will not all go away, unless, again, you get extreme. If you must use a torch, keep the flame away from
direct contact with any lube. Burnt lube, whether it’s oil or grease, takes up space. Put some lube on the outer race of the bearing too. It doesn’t trake a lot. Keep the bearing aligned with the bore when installing. The outer races are radiused, so it’s
really not a big deal, and not so easy to start damaging the housing when installing the bearing.
?
I think some people are making a very simple job into a scary disaster film……
?
Bill
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: 4x6bandsaw@... [mailto:4x6bandsaw@...]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 12:31 PM
To: 4x6bandsaw@...
Subject: Re: [4x6bandsaw] Re: Bainbridge blade guides
?
?
Great idea. However, I don't have a lathe, yet. That's coming in Q1 of 2019. Also, as soon as I sent the last question, I realized the error in my thoughts. If the aluminum is hot enough to sizzle spit, it'll probably burn off the grease.
Or at least break it down past the point of usefulness. Looks like it'll be one or the other. Bearings and seals are in the freezer. :) Now I just need to play with some scrap aluminum and my little MAPP torch to be sure I don't melt the casing...
Weather is too cold to paint anyway. :)
?
?
?
JV,
That makes sense to me. Any issues with following both procedures? Temp and lube?
? I saw where JV said the casting is aluminum . Mine is cast iron - which is still worth heating it up a bit though it won't expand as much as the aluminum . I have had very good luck installing bearings with a piece of threaded rod or a long enough bolt and
some properly sized washers . Sometimes I'll machine a slug that is a slip fit in the bore (with a hole in the center for the rod) to keep the bearing square with the bore . But I don't know what tooling you have available ...
?--
? Snag
?
?
There's the whole science of reliability engineering behind it.. Contrary to popular belief, properly installed and lubed rolling element bearing don't wear out, they fail randomly.
The biggest cause of failure in bearings in general is improper installation, with being dinged from hitting them into place and skewed alignment the main culprits. That's why you never replace bearings as 'preventative
maintenance'.
So anything you can do to ease installation is worth doing. The main ones are heating the outside/cooling the inside so less force required to get it in place, along with jigs to push or pull them in squarely and
applying the pressure to the correct side of the bearing (i.e. never push on the inner to get the outer to seat) - jv
?
|
