|
This is kind of a continuation of the original post from Rong Fu about elements users want to see in any redesign that's been overtaken by other posts.
Attached .pdf is my list of design elements that could do with upgrading, specific design features for a base model? and accessories that could be offered to upgrade it.
Rgds - jv
|
Wow!! ?What a great ?list. ?You have done a fantastic job of listing improvements and kept them within economic reason by suggesting that they offer some ?as extra cost add ons. ?My hat is off to you for the excellent job you’ve done. ?Now let's see if they are really listening.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
This is kind of a continuation of the original post from Rong Fu about elements users want to see in any redesign that's been overtaken by other posts.
Attached .pdf is my list of design elements that could do with upgrading, specific design features for a base model? and accessories that could be offered to upgrade it.
Rgds - jv
<Re-design the 4x6 .pdf>
|
Thanks for this John.
Very helpful to current owners too.? I'll have to read this several times to see what ideas I need to implement.
I might have missed it in all the recent emails, but one thing I've picked up from the group over the years is the issue of poor quality control checks leaving casting sand and machining debris is the gearbox.? I'm not suggesting that this is an issue with Rong Fu machines but an improved QC process on the gearbox cleaning before filling with your recommended oil would be something I'd add to your list for any manufacturer.
many thanks
Toby
Fareham, UK
|
Since the suggestion of providing members of this list with a discount coupon for the machine re-engineered based on this list’s ideas, Rong Fu has disappeared from the conversation.?
Seems like they are quite willing to beg for free idea handouts, but will keep the profits from these to themselves. Having seen this occur multiple times in many manufacturing fields over the years, it leaves a bitter taste.
|
Hi John,?
I have a Grizzly G9742 5” x 6” swivel head band saw.
In reference to some of your specific design elements,?
3. ‘Blade tracking independent of setting squareness’
? ? My saw has that. Adjust the vertical plane with the blade guides, and then adjust the blade square to the ?fixed jaw by adjusting the swivel head.
4. Bow weight is fixed on my saw. I control feed rate/pressure with the hydraulic feed control. I have not needed more weight. The hydraulic down feed was one of the reasons I chose the saw I did.?
12. The fixed jaw On thIs Grizz is non-adjustable. Angles are set & cut by swiveling the head, which is easily & quickly done, and changed back to 90 degrees. The swivel head is another reason I chose the saw I diid.?
In reference to accessories,
My saw has a hydraulic down feed.
My stand is quite rigid, another reason I chose this saw. I move my saw around , as well as in and out of my shop. It has two wheels, and two rubber feet. There is also a slide out handle, for wheeling it around, like a wheel barrow.?
My saw has a rapid release moveable jaw.
All the goodies I have, which are not on standard 4” x 6” saws, come at a price. My saw was a little over double The cost of what a HF saw was when I bought it. ?
We live in a price driven market. Proof of that, is the amount of HF saws that are sold. Basically, some folks will pay for a few added features, like me. Some.....will not.?
Other things,
Something not mentioned, is the v-belt that comes on these things. They remind me of the old fiberglass belted tires, that when cold, go thump thump thump vibrating your brains out for 10 miles.
That, and I think the belts they are made out of recycled whale blubber, as they don’t last that long, which is actually a good thing. I put on a Gates V-belt, and only adjusted it once at installation, and a second time when I repaired the motor mount plate, which cracked. Nothing a little welding and a couple pieces of flat-bar didn’t fix.
Agreed. The blade tensioner knob is junk. On mine, the threaded rod was about a half inch too short, so when changing blades, it was barely engaged with the block, and finally failed. I made my own new knob, with a bit longer piece of B7 all thread.?
Other Bill
|
Hi guys
Yes the swivel base saw is a definite improvement in a lot of areas and obviously grew out of the standard 4x6, as the heads are pretty well identical. Rong Fu said they are looking to redesign the standard saw and I think there's still plenty to improve and still come in at a lower price point than the swivel base.
What I meant by '...tracking independent of squareness...' was something that I believe is still part of your saw Bill, like:
Losing the rear guide roller support setting when adjusting the twist angle of the blade to the vice table (fixable with Rick Sparber's brilliant setscrew through the back of the guide bracket)
Inner side guide roller bearing on an eccentric mount, so that when you adjust the blade-to-guide clearance you lose horizontal squareness (fixable by making it a concentric mount)
The quality control is a big issue only when its absent! It's the reason people pay more for a Grizzly or a Jet when there are usually not many more features on them than an HF.? The casting sand in the oil was a hot topic on the forum about 2005 - 2008 and seems to be under control now, but caused so much grief its definitely one that needs to be on the list of QA hotspots.
Henry's posts show RF are still listening.?
I don't think there is anyone who has not felt the pain of corporate greed.? Still you can do worse than listen to Ray Wylie Hubbard's 'Mother Blues'.? In the last line he says "...the days that I keep my gratitude higher than my expectations, I have really good days" - jv?
?
|
Sorry I should've put a link in to that song.
Here's a good version, last song of the concert go to 1:19:38
Its a hoot? - jv
|
I get your point.? Some companies basically plagiarize the ideas
of other companies as their business plan - and that is a problem.
But I don't think that's what is happening here.? Many products
we buy look like they've been cost-optimized to death, with so
many corners cut the product is barely usable.?
The way I read it, Rong Fu is going the other direction.? He's
spending some money on the 4x6 - and that's a risky thing to do
when its such a cost optimized tool.? If he raises the cost with
features his customers don't care about, it will all be a waste.?
So he's soliciting the wish lists (or gripe list) of his
customers.?
If there is anyone else on the list wanting to commercially
produce enhancements for the 4x6, I assume they'll not volunteer
ideas in these threads.? Though they might quietly make use of the
market research Rong Fu is doing here.
-Joe
On 5/23/2020 10:32 AM, S Johnson wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Since the suggestion of providing members of this list with a
discount coupon for the machine re-engineered based on this
list’s ideas, Rong Fu has disappeared from the conversation.?
Seems like they are quite willing to beg for free idea
handouts, but will keep the profits from these to themselves.
Having seen this occur multiple times in many manufacturing
fields over the years, it leaves a bitter taste.
|
Keep in mind it’s night time in Taiwan
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On May 23, 2020, at 2:50 PM, Joe Blount <joe.blount@...> wrote:
?
I get your point.? Some companies basically plagiarize the ideas
of other companies as their business plan - and that is a problem.
But I don't think that's what is happening here.? Many products
we buy look like they've been cost-optimized to death, with so
many corners cut the product is barely usable.?
The way I read it, Rong Fu is going the other direction.? He's
spending some money on the 4x6 - and that's a risky thing to do
when its such a cost optimized tool.? If he raises the cost with
features his customers don't care about, it will all be a waste.?
So he's soliciting the wish lists (or gripe list) of his
customers.?
If there is anyone else on the list wanting to commercially
produce enhancements for the 4x6, I assume they'll not volunteer
ideas in these threads.? Though they might quietly make use of the
market research Rong Fu is doing here.
-Joe
On 5/23/2020 10:32 AM, S Johnson wrote:
Since the suggestion of providing members of this list with a
discount coupon for the machine re-engineered based on this
list’s ideas, Rong Fu has disappeared from the conversation.?
Seems like they are quite willing to beg for free idea
handouts, but will keep the profits from these to themselves.
Having seen this occur multiple times in many manufacturing
fields over the years, it leaves a bitter taste.
|
It’s just a matter of not getting carried away.
What we really want, is something like a Wellsaw. Their smallest one, a 6-1/2” x 11”, has about everything you want, or anybody wants in a saw. A sliding weight, hydraulic down-feed, a fence, a coolant
pump, it has a table, and will cut vertically, a ?” blade, and it will cut twice as fast as any 4” x 6”. And the wheels, are worthy of a garden tractor.
It also weighs about 600 pounds, and costs about $5000 last I bought one. (several years ago)
?
Some easy and not so costly improvements, sure.
QA improvements are a yes. Some of the stories I have heard about Horror Freight saws are pretty bad. ?
A better stand wouldn’t cost a lot.
All 4 bearing shafts could be eccentric adjusters, instead of just 2….not a big deal, and a lot less costly than the swinging head for adjusting squareness.
Quick release vice wouldn’t be too expensive either.
?
Other things, like hydraulic down-feed, or coolant system with drain tray….optional, maybe just sold as a customer installed kit(s), or, dealer installed.
?
Other Bill
?
Sent from for Windows 10
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: vreededesign
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 12:14 PM
To: 4x6bandsaw@groups.io
Subject: Re: [4x6bandsaw] Redesign of the 4x6
?
Hi guys
Yes the swivel base saw is a definite improvement in a lot of areas and obviously grew out of the standard 4x6, as the heads are pretty well identical. Rong Fu said they are looking to redesign the standard saw and I think there's still plenty to improve and
still come in at a lower price point than the swivel base.
What I meant by '...tracking independent of squareness...' was something that I believe is still part of your saw Bill, like:
Losing the rear guide roller support setting when adjusting the twist angle of the blade to the vice table (fixable with Rick Sparber's brilliant setscrew through the back of the guide bracket)
Inner side guide roller bearing on an eccentric mount, so that when you adjust the blade-to-guide clearance you lose horizontal squareness (fixable by making it a concentric mount)
The quality control is a big issue only when its absent! It's the reason people pay more for a Grizzly or a Jet when there are usually not many more features on them than an HF.? The casting sand in the oil was a hot topic on the forum about 2005 - 2008 and
seems to be under control now, but caused so much grief its definitely one that needs to be on the list of QA hotspots.
Henry's posts show RF are still listening.?
I don't think there is anyone who has not felt the pain of corporate greed.? Still you can do worse than listen to Ray Wylie Hubbard's 'Mother Blues'.? In the last line he says "...the days that I keep my gratitude higher than my expectations, I have really
good days" - jv?
?
|
To elaborate on "A better stand wouldn’t cost a
lot."
I got my
saw about 10 years ago from my dad, who got it maybe 20 years
before that at a big box store, on sale for $99.
When I got
it, the stand was twisted and collapsed.? I pulled it back
straight and welded a rectangle of angle-iron around the bottom
of the stand.?
Since the
angle-iron made a lip around the inside of the stand, I cut a
scrap of plywood to lay in it.? Then I screwed a rectangular
bucket to the plywood, that tilts outward at an angle.? That
bucket catches almost all the swarf.? Small pieces of cut off
stock usually land in the bucket too.?
Now the
stand is very solid, and swarf bucket works well.? Including
that from the factory or as an upgrade option would be cheap.
-Joe
On 5/23/2020 3:16 PM, Bill Armstrong
wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
It’s
just a matter of not getting carried away.
What
we really want, is something like a Wellsaw. Their smallest
one, a 6-1/2” x 11”, has about everything you want, or
anybody wants in a saw. A sliding weight, hydraulic
down-feed, a fence, a coolant pump, it has a table, and will
cut vertically, a ?” blade, and it will cut twice as fast as
any 4” x 6”. And the wheels, are worthy of a garden tractor.
It
also weighs about 600 pounds, and costs about $5000 last I
bought one. (several years ago)
?
Some
easy and not so costly improvements, sure.
QA
improvements are a yes. Some of the stories I have heard
about Horror Freight saws are pretty bad. ?
A
better stand wouldn’t cost a lot.
All 4
bearing shafts could be eccentric adjusters, instead of just
2….not a big deal, and a lot less costly than the swinging
head for adjusting squareness.
Quick
release vice wouldn’t be too expensive either.
?
Other
things, like hydraulic down-feed, or coolant system with
drain tray….optional, maybe just sold as a customer
installed kit(s), or, dealer installed.
?
Other
Bill
?
|
So many of you have bought these saws used! Not much new business with you all.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 24 May 2020 00:11:21 BST, Joe Blount <joe.blount@...> wrote:
To elaborate on "A better stand wouldn’t cost a
lot."
I got my
saw about 10 years ago from my dad, who got it maybe 20 years
before that at a big box store, on sale for $99.
When I got
it, the stand was twisted and collapsed.? I pulled it back
straight and welded a rectangle of angle-iron around the bottom
of the stand.?
Since the
angle-iron made a lip around the inside of the stand, I cut a
scrap of plywood to lay in it.? Then I screwed a rectangular
bucket to the plywood, that tilts outward at an angle.? That
bucket catches almost all the swarf.? Small pieces of cut off
stock usually land in the bucket too.?
Now the
stand is very solid, and swarf bucket works well.? Including
that from the factory or as an upgrade option would be cheap.
-Joe
On 5/23/2020 3:16 PM, Bill Armstrong
wrote:
It’s
just a matter of not getting carried away.
What
we really want, is something like a Wellsaw. Their smallest
one, a 6-1/2” x 11”, has about everything you want, or
anybody wants in a saw. A sliding weight, hydraulic
down-feed, a fence, a coolant pump, it has a table, and will
cut vertically, a ?” blade, and it will cut twice as fast as
any 4” x 6”. And the wheels, are worthy of a garden tractor.
It
also weighs about 600 pounds, and costs about $5000 last I
bought one. (several years ago)
?
Some
easy and not so costly improvements, sure.
QA
improvements are a yes. Some of the stories I have heard
about Horror Freight saws are pretty bad. ?
A
better stand wouldn’t cost a lot.
All 4
bearing shafts could be eccentric adjusters, instead of just
2….not a big deal, and a lot less costly than the swinging
head for adjusting squareness.
Quick
release vice wouldn’t be too expensive either.
?
Other
things, like hydraulic down-feed, or coolant system with
drain tray….optional, maybe just sold as a customer
installed kit(s), or, dealer installed.
?
Other
Bill
?
|
Its part of the bias that polling people like us gets you.?? We're the ones with saws that don't work like we want them to, whether that's?because they're old and 2nd-hand or the original wasn't much good anyway. Good place to come if you want to find out what to do better. Polling all the satisfied first owners won't get this sort of data That said, what you say is true - jv?
So many of you have bought these saws used! Not much new business with you all. On 24 May 2020 00:11:21 BST, Joe Blount < joe.blount@...> wrote:
To elaborate on "A better stand wouldn’t cost a
lot."
I got my
saw about 10 years ago from my dad, who got it maybe 20 years
before that at a big box store, on sale for $99.
When I got
it, the stand was twisted and collapsed.? I pulled it back
straight and welded a rectangle of angle-iron around the bottom
of the stand.?
Since the
angle-iron made a lip around the inside of the stand, I cut a
scrap of plywood to lay in it.? Then I screwed a rectangular
bucket to the plywood, that tilts outward at an angle.? That
bucket catches almost all the swarf.? Small pieces of cut off
stock usually land in the bucket too.?
Now the
stand is very solid, and swarf bucket works well.? Including
that from the factory or as an upgrade option would be cheap.
-Joe
On 5/23/2020 3:16 PM, Bill Armstrong
wrote:
It’s
just a matter of not getting carried away.
What
we really want, is something like a Wellsaw. Their smallest
one, a 6-1/2” x 11”, has about everything you want, or
anybody wants in a saw. A sliding weight, hydraulic
down-feed, a fence, a coolant pump, it has a table, and will
cut vertically, a ?” blade, and it will cut twice as fast as
any 4” x 6”. And the wheels, are worthy of a garden tractor.
It
also weighs about 600 pounds, and costs about $5000 last I
bought one. (several years ago)
?
Some
easy and not so costly improvements, sure.
QA
improvements are a yes. Some of the stories I have heard
about Horror Freight saws are pretty bad. ?
A
better stand wouldn’t cost a lot.
All 4
bearing shafts could be eccentric adjusters, instead of just
2….not a big deal, and a lot less costly than the swinging
head for adjusting squareness.
Quick
release vice wouldn’t be too expensive either.
?
Other
things, like hydraulic down-feed, or coolant system with
drain tray….optional, maybe just sold as a customer
installed kit(s), or, dealer installed.
?
Other
Bill
?
|
It’s why we have tools….including band saws.
We fix things. We build things. When thing don’t work as well as we’d like, we modify things so they do, or at least, perform better.
?
I bought my saw new. I adjusted the blade tracking, and alignment, and have been off & running since.
A few repairs along the way. It’s mechanical, and mechanical things break.
I’ve also built some fixtures for my saw for doing specific types of cutting. That’s the fun part again….building stuff! ?
?
Other Bill
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: 4x6bandsaw@groups.io [mailto:4x6bandsaw@groups.io]
On Behalf Of John Vreede
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 6:07 PM
To: 4x6bandsaw@groups.io Group Moderators
Subject: Re: [4x6bandsaw] Redesign of the 4x6
?
Its part of the bias that polling people like us gets you.??
We're the ones with saws that don't work like we want them to, whether that's?because they're old and 2nd-hand or the original wasn't much good anyway.
Good place to come if you want to find out what to do better.
Polling all the satisfied first owners won't get this sort of data
That said, what you say is true - jv?
?
So many of you have bought these saws used! Not much new business with you all.
On 24 May 2020 00:11:21 BST, Joe Blount <joe.blount@...> wrote:
To elaborate on "A better stand wouldn’t cost a lot."
?
I got my saw about 10 years ago from my dad, who got it maybe 20 years before that at a big box store, on sale for $99.
When I got it, the stand was twisted and collapsed.? I pulled it back straight and welded a rectangle of angle-iron around the bottom of the stand.?
Since the angle-iron made a lip around the inside of the stand, I cut a scrap of plywood to lay in it.? Then I screwed a rectangular bucket to the plywood, that tilts outward at
an angle.? That bucket catches almost all the swarf.? Small pieces of cut off stock usually land in the bucket too.?
?
Now the stand is very solid, and swarf bucket works well.? Including that from the factory or as an upgrade option would be cheap.
?
-Joe
?
?
On 5/23/2020 3:16 PM, Bill Armstrong wrote:
It’s just a matter of not getting carried away.
What we really want, is something like a Wellsaw. Their smallest one, a 6-1/2” x 11”, has about everything you want, or anybody wants in a saw. A sliding weight, hydraulic down-feed,
a fence, a coolant pump, it has a table, and will cut vertically, a ?” blade, and it will cut twice as fast as any 4” x 6”. And the wheels, are worthy of a garden tractor.
It also weighs about 600 pounds, and costs about $5000 last I bought one. (several years ago)
?
Some easy and not so costly improvements, sure.
QA improvements are a yes. Some of the stories I have heard about Horror Freight saws are pretty bad. ?
A better stand wouldn’t cost a lot.
All 4 bearing shafts could be eccentric adjusters, instead of just 2….not a big deal, and a lot less costly than the swinging head for adjusting squareness.
Quick release vice wouldn’t be too expensive either.
?
Other things, like hydraulic down-feed, or coolant system with drain tray….optional, maybe just sold as a customer installed kit(s), or, dealer installed.
?
Other Bill
?
?
|
I never buy any machinery new for the same reason I never buy new cars- too expensive and they loose value too fast.? I could buy them new, but I like the challenge of the hunt, the joy of the kill (a great deal), and if something is broken, I can fix it.? I'd rather spend the extra cash on other things.? As a bonus, I can usually sell machinery/tools for more than I paid for them, even after years of use.
-Dave
On Saturday, May 23, 2020, 05:55:40 PM PDT, donnygadee via groups.io <philipleith@...> wrote:
So many of you have bought these saws used! Not much new business with you all.
|
Generally, offshore Vee belts are not good! First thing I do is replace with a Fenner Belt.
Changed Tormach 1100, 4x6 1981 vintage saw, Griz Jointer, Rong Fu drill/mill, 12x36 lathe, 6x16 planer, and others. Once and done.
gary
On Saturday, May 23, 2020, 01:52:00 PM CDT, Bill Armstrong <bill_1955@...> wrote:
Hi John,?
I have a Grizzly G9742 5” x 6” swivel head band saw.
In reference to some of your specific design elements,?
3. ‘Blade tracking independent of setting squareness’
? ? My saw has that. Adjust the vertical plane with the blade guides, and then adjust the blade square to the ?fixed jaw by adjusting the swivel head.
4. Bow weight is fixed on my saw. I control feed rate/pressure with the hydraulic feed control. I have not needed more weight. The hydraulic down feed was one of the reasons I chose the saw I did.?
12. The fixed jaw On thIs Grizz is non-adjustable. Angles are set & cut by swiveling the head, which is easily & quickly done, and changed back to 90 degrees. The swivel head is another reason I chose the saw I diid.?
In reference to accessories,
My saw has a hydraulic down feed.
My stand is quite rigid, another reason I chose this saw. I move my saw around , as well as in and out of my shop. It has two wheels, and two rubber feet. There is also a slide out handle, for wheeling it around, like a wheel barrow.?
My saw has a rapid release moveable jaw.
All the goodies I have, which are not on standard 4” x 6” saws, come at a price. My saw was a little over double The cost of what a HF saw was when I bought it. ?
We live in a price driven market. Proof of that, is the amount of HF saws that are sold. Basically, some folks will pay for a few added features, like me. Some.....will not.?
Other things,
Something not mentioned, is the v-belt that comes on these things. They remind me of the old fiberglass belted tires, that when cold, go thump thump thump vibrating your brains out for 10 miles.
That, and I think the belts they are made out of recycled whale blubber, as they don’t last that long, which is actually a good thing. I put on a Gates V-belt, and only adjusted it once at installation, and a second time when I repaired the motor mount plate, which cracked. Nothing a little welding and a couple pieces of flat-bar didn’t fix.
Agreed. The blade tensioner knob is junk. On mine, the threaded rod was about a half inch too short, so when changing blades, it was barely engaged with the block, and finally failed. I made my own new knob, with a bit longer piece of B7 all thread.?
Other Bill
|
Other Bill Wrote : I bought my saw new. I adjusted the blade tracking, and alignment,
and have been off & running since. Maybe you should try re-adjusting correctly :-) D lists/4x6bandsaw/2020-05-24.tx 4x6bandsaw@groups.io +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Dave Restall, Computer Anorak, Geek, Cyclist, Radio Amateur G4FCU, Bodger | | Mob +44 (0) 7973 831245 Skype: dave.restall Radio: G4FCU | | email : dave@... - Anti-SocialMediaist - Web : Not Ready Yet :-( | +- QOTD ---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | If the code and the comments disagree, then both are probably wrong. | | -- Norm Schryer | +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|
Hi, John:
?
Tks for your summary, I will check it. Apreciate!!
?
***
Although the world is currently in fear of the virus, Rong Fu Industrial staff
is all normal and safe, and continue to work hard to provide consistent quality
services to customers worldwide. Thank you for your continued support and
everyone to do a good job in virus protection.
雖然目前全球處於病毒恐懼中, 榮富工業人員一切正常平安,
持續努力工作 提供全球客戶一貫如一的優質服務。 感謝大家的持續支持, 大家一起做好病毒防護。
Best Regards
Henry
Tseng 曾書崎
══════════════════════════════════════
榮富工業股份有限公司
www.rongfu.com
Taiwan Rong Fu Industrial Co., Ltd. (Marketing
Department)
台中市太平区宜昌东路132号
No.132 Yi Chang East Road ,Taiping
District,Taichung,Taiwan
Tel +886 4 22771199 ext 124
Fax +886 4
22569503
E-mail
rongfu@...
══════════════════════════════════
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: vreededesign
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 11:28 AM
To: 4x6bandsaw@groups.io
Subject: [4x6bandsaw] Redesign of the 4x6
?
This
is kind of a continuation of the original post from Rong Fu about elements users
want to see in any redesign that's been overtaken by other posts.
Attached
.pdf is my list of design elements that could do with upgrading, specific design
features for a base model? and accessories that could be offered to upgrade
it.
Rgds - jv
|
Hi, John:
Lots of information and suggestion you gave us, i think we will have a discuss with our team for these suggestion, it's very useful to us, tks again for support.
|
Hi, Johnson:
it's just a busy lately, i just came up few mins ago to see lots of suggestions here, i and my team need to collect and study a bit, and sometimes designers have different opinions each other,so, this project still have a long way to go, please don't misunderstand, we will keep coming up here and give you guys update if any news. tks for your concern! ^^
|
Tom Angell
John Vreede
Henry